Beretta to remain in MD, but reevaluating plans for expansion within the state

[Decoy]

hummmm

Beretta Announces Plans to Move After Maryland Gov. Signs Bill

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=119792&highlight=beretta

 

[MonkeyPunch]

AFAIK, they only had to make the guns in the US, not specifically in MD. So much for that claim.

First, I'm not defending Beretta in context of this argument. Second, I have not read the contract, and therefore can only make general claims regarding Fed Procurement.

If Beretta either demonstrates an inability to provide the goods (m9s), or a foreseeable inability to provide the goods (ie - packing up and moving and halting production as to create a situation that would not allow them to provide the goods - m9s), as per contract specifications, the Contract Officer would issue a cure notice (gives them time to correct the issue/perceived issue); if not sufficiently addressed, the CO would then send a show-cause notice (forcing Beretta to explain why they should not get a Termination for Default). If Beretta received a T for D, it would significantly impact their ability to compete for further military contracts in the future.

While Beretta does not have to reside in MD, they must continue to fulfill their obligations under the contract terms with the Fed; this would probably exclude immediately packing up and moving - they would instead need to create a facility (in another state) that could handle production before closing the current facility.

So this restriction does not prevent Beretta from leaving MD, but instead significantly increases the time and money required to make said move.

 

[aquaman]

I was. I went to Annapolis 6 times. I walked back to the stadium parking lot at 3:30 AM on that famous night in the House.
I watched the Beretta guys get their balls busted when one of the legislators said something to the effect of, "Tell me about the gun laws in Italy. Is it legal for the citizens of Italy to purchase the guns you manufacture there?" If I remember they danced around a direct answer but the point was made. I have no love affair with Beretta any more than other manufacturers. I think they are in a catch 22. Maybe they bluffed but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they were throwing everything at it that they had.

Maryland needs more gun manufacturers, not fewer.

Actually it is legal. They don't even require you weld up the 3rd hole on AK's, they just take the auto parts out. They have a 5rd mag limit but they can have 30rd mags if blocked to 30. They can have 5 'assault rifles' total IIRC

You can get full auto Hungarian, Russian AKM's minus the auto parts of the FCG. FAL's, G3's etc I know this because there is an Italian collector on some of the AK forums.

 

[trbon8r]

I wouldn't be angry at them. It's not their fault. While I would have liked to have seen them move too, I can understand why they didn't. And you can like or hate their products, but they do care about their employees and I sincerely believe that also played into this decision. I would suggest viewing them as a powerful friend who will be remaining here, not someone to shun because they didn't do what a handful of armchair strategists with nothing to lose wanted them to do. They could not have stopped this bill by moving. The legislators in Annapolis could care less about 300 manufacturing jobs in a largely federally-subsidized state of 7 million people. But it's possible they had a lot more to do with the bill at least getting significantly watered down than people realize or hear about. Just possible.

Stop it with that logic and reason. You are interrupting a perfectly good furious masturbatory hate fest.

 

[LoneRanger]

How many of you guys have moved out of MD yet, or put your houses on the market? If it's so easy to leave, you should have done so by now (as I have...). If your excuse is "MD is my home state and I'll stay and fight", "well the kids are still in school", or "I can't sell my house without taking a SIGNIFICANT loss", you should be careful about casting stones.

I don't have time to make a proper response at the moment, but a few people in this thread have made good points on why they are staying for now... I will have to elaborate later... I've got a lot to say and I hope at least some of you will consider it.

The difference is that between the Senate and House hearings I did not hear any individuals "threaten" to leave the state...unlike the Beretta lackey who did.........in my book Beretta is just like Senator Brochin....just another bunch of liars....say one thing then do the opposite.............

 

[BeerHunter]

They benefit from sb281. Their new ar style platform (arx) was magically unscathed by the law. So they no longer compete with colt, bushmaster etc. big government and big business go hand in hand my friend.

Some ron paul types swear that behind the scenes republicans and dems laugh at us. Its all a show....they fight in front of camera but really care about money and power. Im starting to see how someone could hold that view in this instance.

So i say this: the difference between magpul and beretta is the former is run by an ex marine and the latter a board of directors. Beretta is penny wise, pound foolish.

Careful. I served in another branch but have spent the last 26 years working around both USN and U.S. Marines. You just inadvertantly insulted the former US Marine Sergeant Richard M. Fitzpatrick of Magpul. An "ex-marine" is one who was separated from the Corps without honor (e.g., Dishonorable Discharge, court-martial, etc.)!

Any Marine who served honorably will get their hackles up in about a half millisecond if referred to as an "ex Marine".

 

[Docster]

First, I'm not defending Beretta in context of this argument. Second, I have not read the contract, and therefore can only make general claims regarding Fed Procurement.

If Beretta either demonstrates an inability to provide the goods (m9s), or a foreseeable inability to provide the goods (ie - packing up and moving and halting production as to create a situation that would not allow them to provide the goods - m9s), as per contract specifications, the Contract Officer would issue a cure notice (gives them time to correct the issue/perceived issue); if not sufficiently addressed, the CO would then send a show-cause notice (forcing Beretta to explain why they should not get a Termination for Default). If Beretta received a T for D, it would significantly impact their ability to compete for further military contracts in the future.

While Beretta does not have to reside in MD, they must continue to fulfill their obligations under the contract terms with the Fed; this would probably exclude immediately packing up and moving - they would instead need to create a facility (in another state) that could handle production before closing the current facility.

So this restriction does not prevent Beretta from leaving MD, but instead significantly increases the time and money required to make said move.

For those that have jumped to the conclusion that Beretta has some obligation to 'get something for Marylanders' or has decided to forego on it's promise, please try to consider that;

1. Beretta has no obligation to get anything for Marylanders. It is a business; it's purpose is to make a product that sells
2. As a business with legal contracts with the federal government, I highly doubt that it can 'up and move' on a moments notice and perhaps just tell the feds to 'wait till after we move and we'll catch up on your contract'. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that moving an entire operation takes months/years to do smartly.
3. As a business, Beretta will do what is in it's best interests; if moving out of Maryland is in it's best interests, it will move; likely in steps over time. It looks like it may be starting this. Only a relatively small operation could do otherwise
4. To all of you who now feel it necessary to stop buying Beretta, fine, but many of you stated you would move to PA or VA. You haven't because of kids, school, job, etc. That's hypocritical--Beretta can't just up and move for similar economic reasons. Lighten up.....

 

[Sportstud4891]

There is a simple fix to all of this. Beretta needs to fight with us. Spend money on pro-2A legislators. Spend money on advertising to start educating the public. Show up with more than just 1 person. Engage the newspapers now and tell people that this is a bad bill! Start informing the people who voted for this bill.

I saw Engage Armament at the hearings and rallies. I saw many gun shop owners at the hearings and rallies. I waited patiently in line to talk to my legislators while those same gun shop owners opposed the entire bill, not just the parts that would affect their business. I saw 1 person from Beretta at the hearings when they get their salaries paid because "the people" support them.

I realize this is a money thing for Beretta. I understand how the bottom line works. I would be okay with them staying if they absolutely have to, but I need to see more action out of them. When the efforts of thousands of people opposing this bill are ignored but Beretta is powerful enough to carve out their specific exceptions then I have a problem. They should use that power to help us too. The monetary support from "the people" is what allows Beretta to stay in business. If the bottom line is all they care about in today's environment then let them fail.

 

[Omega21]

For those that have jumped to the conclusion that Beretta has some obligation to 'get something for Marylanders' or has decided to forego on it's promise, please try to consider that;

1. Beretta has no obligation to get anything for Marylanders. It is a business; it's purpose is to make a product that sells
2. As a business with legal contracts with the federal government, I highly doubt that it can 'up and move' on a moments notice and perhaps just tell the feds to 'wait till after we move and we'll catch up on your contract'. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that moving an entire operation takes months/years to do smartly.
3. As a business, Beretta will do what is in it's best interests; if moving out of Maryland is in it's best interests, it will move; likely in steps over time. It looks like it may be starting this. Only a relatively small operation could do otherwise
4. To all of you who now feel it necessary to stop buying Beretta, fine, but many of you stated you would move to PA or VA. You haven't because of kids, school, job, etc. That's hypocritical--Beretta can't just up and move for similar economic reasons. Lighten up.....

Listen Colonel, I recommend reading some of the previous posts as they speak to your points. Yes, of course they are a business and make decisions based on the interest of the board, etc. We all know that. They don't "owe" us anything other than loyalty to their customers. We do expect that they share some mutual values with us (at least reagrding 2A) so when we see the actions of companies like Olympic Arms and Magpul (and others) we wonder "why not Beretta"?
Also,
No one is suggesting they leave MD right away or fail to meet their obligations to anyone. We all recognize these things take time and effort and careful planning.
Lastly, as far as individuals moving out of MD - to what end? Just because someone makes the statement on a gun board out of anger at the state govt, you really think that when then run into the reality of job, wife, kids, financial issues, etc. they are going to follow up with that? Again - to what end? You think some state legislator is going to sit up and notice when I move my family to VA because I'm pissed off about gun legislation (or gas tax)? A company like Beretta moving is a different story - that action speaks volumes on a national level and sends a resounding message (not that I'm convinced anyone in MD govt would listen, but at least it demonstrates conviction and loyalty to the issue). And yes, Beretta CAN move DESPITE those issues. They are a company operating well in the black. If they committ to moving (as they said they would) then they can do it in a strategic manner which supports company priorities and without abandoning their employees. It's been done successfully by others.

 

[webb297]

I just went and read the post the published. If the post had been "We think think that what happened was terrible, but we have to stay in MD because of .....whatever" I would be pissed, and the only Beretta I would buy in the future would be a single stack "g" model M9A1 compact, if they made one (meaning I would never be buying another Beretta).

If their statement was " We think it is terrible and we vow to stop all future expansion in MD, and will begin transitioning all manufacturing processes to other states that do not infringe on their citizens rights with the objective to be completely out of MD by 2099 (or any date)" I would go out an but an M9 today (if I could find one).

As it was written, the press release is kinda a mixture of the two. It says that they were expanding in MD but because of the bill, they are "taking steps to evaluate such investments in other states." They did not say they were going to stop expanding in MD. The did not make a commitment in any form to back the beliefs they are espousing. On the day that MOM signed the bill into law, what we got from Beretta (The biggest gun in this fight from our end, pun intended) is 5 paragraphs on how bad this is, how much they tried to help, and then, well, they will look into it. They have had 7 months to look into it. If this caught them by surprise and they thought that the bill would never pass they had their heads in the ground from the start, and they have such a poor understanding of their market that this should hurt them. Yes they run a business, but the retail part of that business (us) are generally pretty principled people. We believe very strongly in our constitution. Their company has benefited GREATLY because of that fact. Do not expect this community to all of the sudden go soft on its principals, just because it is a gun manufacturer that runs afoul of them.

If Beretta puts out another press release, clarifying the last paragraph of that statement, confirming that they will be a company of their word, and stand on principle, in the most economically acceptable way for their company, the military, the shooting and 2A community at large, and they commit to leave the state - Im back in.

 

[smokey]

What makes all of you such experts in manufacturing and equipment moving ????? This was a extreamly hard desicision for Beretta! It would have costed the company 10's of millions of dollars !! There is no ready to go facility just over the bridge !!! Its a storage warehouse !! Unlike magPul that had injection molding equipment Which I might add are very easy to move and set up. Beretta requires over a 200000 Amp power service! There is many EPA Issues dealing with the Chrome line, Anodizing, Brunitron,Blueing,The DMP, Heat treating with caustic soda !Then there is the lead issues with the shooting tubes and EPA permits required before moving and redoing the building! Then they have 1200 HP of air compressors. Hundreds of mile of wires and air lines to power there equipment. Then there is moving and set up of there machines. The Matsui siki's took over a year to set up and thats just 6 machining centers! thay have several hundred ! then down time and not being able to deliver on contracts.There is Mag partical and metrololigy that needs a clean rooms that need a consistant air quality and temp.Beretta has its own tool grinding group that needs special air ventilation system. so does there polishing area. And what about the people that have been there 15-20 years? The avarage employee has been there 18 years. So what makes this a no brainer to just jump over the bridge??? I mentioned just a small bit of what needs to be done.You can love them or hate them . But if you have ever been there and seen both the tolarance , quality and Innovation You could better understand and appriciate what it takes to make a gun!

...yup. When I have the money to, I'm probably picking up an ARX100. Beretta actually stood up against sb281. I personally used their email kajigger to email-bomb the general assembly in opposition to sb281. Name some other manufacturers that fought against sb281....s&w?....ruger?....glock?....etc. So what if they fought to get the cx4's and arx100's exempted from sb281? I'd rather be able to get a cx4 after the ban goes into effect than NOT be able to. Yup, the ARX100 is on my future-buy list as long as it lives up to the hype(and the safety placement doesn't cause issues with the trigger finger).

 

[webb297]

...yup. When I have the money to, I'm probably picking up an ARX100. Beretta actually stood up against sb281. I personally used their email kajigger to email-bomb the general assembly in opposition to sb281. Name some other manufacturers that fought against sb281....s&w?....ruger?....glock?....etc. So what if they fought to get the cx4's and arx100's exempted from sb281? I'd rather be able to get a cx4 after the ban goes into effect than NOT be able to. Yup, the ARX100 is on my future-buy list as long as it lives up to the hype(and the safety placement doesn't cause issues with the trigger finger).

This is where we differ, I would rather there not be a ban. I do not believe that fighting to have your products exempted can be considered fighting against the bill as a whole, just against loosing any of your market share. Sending on officer of the company (a financial guy IIRC) to argue for excluding their products, is not going to cut it when the spend millions yearly on advertisement. How much did they spend advertising to support opposition to SB281?

Hey, if a company wants to be all about the benjamins, i'm cool with that, they just will not be mine.

 

[dist1646]

If you are going to boycot Beretta, then you also need to boycot Benelli, Franchi, SAKO, Stoeger, Tikka, Uberti, and Burris Optics. They are all owned by Beretta Holdings.

I own a Beretta and a Benelli. I do not plan on selling them as they are good guns. I am however, perfectly fine with not buying any more until they demonstrate that they are not just a lap dog. I understand that they can not simply pack up and move immediately. They should never have stated that they would. I would like to see Beretta become more vocal on our side of the issue and would like to see some more tangible efforts from them as well. We all know that this is a really bad law! Beretta, man up!

 

[MonkeyPunch]

For those that have jumped to the conclusion that Beretta has some obligation to 'get something for Marylanders' or has decided to forego on it's promise, please try to consider that;

1. Beretta has no obligation to get anything for Marylanders. It is a business; it's purpose is to make a product that sells
2. As a business with legal contracts with the federal government, I highly doubt that it can 'up and move' on a moments notice and perhaps just tell the feds to 'wait till after we move and we'll catch up on your contract'. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that moving an entire operation takes months/years to do smartly.
3. As a business, Beretta will do what is in it's best interests; if moving out of Maryland is in it's best interests, it will move; likely in steps over time. It looks like it may be starting this. Only a relatively small operation could do otherwise
4. To all of you who now feel it necessary to stop buying Beretta, fine, but many of you stated you would move to PA or VA. You haven't because of kids, school, job, etc. That's hypocritical--Beretta can't just up and move for similar economic reasons. Lighten up.....

With all due respect, I do not believe that you meant to respond to my post.

I have never claimed that Beretta had any obligation to stay in Maryland, that Beretta has decided to forego on a promise, nor that I have any intention to purchase/not purchase from Beretta in the future.

To clarify, my post stated:
1. Beretta has a legal obligation under their contract with the Federal Government to provide M9s to the military.
2. If they miss a delivery, or it is perceived that they will miss a delivery, they may get into trouble with the Contract Officer (in charge of the contract for the delivery of the M9s).
3. If Beretta cannot properly respond to the CO's issues, they may significantly impact their future ability to win Government contracts.
4. This means that in order to ensure on-time delivery of goods, Beretta may have to wait until their contract is concluded or set up a second manufacturing site that can handle the needed production. As such, Beretta will have move forward carefully no matter which decision they make.

In other words: Beretta cannot simply up and leave on a moment's notice, because they still have to provide the Fed with their guns. Whatever happens will take time.

Thanks.

 

[Docster]

With all due respect, I do not believe that you meant to respond to my post.

I have never claimed that Beretta had any obligation to stay in Maryland, that Beretta has decided to forego on a promise, nor that I have any intention to purchase/not purchase from Beretta in the future.

To clarify, my post stated:
1. Beretta has a legal obligation under their contract with the Federal Government to provide M9s to the military.
2. If they miss a delivery, or it is perceived that they will miss a delivery, they may get into trouble with the Contract Officer (in charge of the contract for the delivery of the M9s).
3. If Beretta cannot properly respond to the CO's issues, they may significantly impact their future ability to win Government contracts.
4. This means that in order to ensure on-time delivery of goods, Beretta may have to wait until their contract is concluded or set up a second manufacturing site that can handle the needed production. As such, Beretta will have move forward carefully no matter which decision they make.

In other words: Beretta cannot simply up and leave on a moment's notice, because they still have to provide the Fed with their guns. Whatever happens will take time.

Thanks.

You are correct, I'm not responding to any individual's post, else I would have quoted it. I was responding to many of the posts collectively, with no intention to offend you or anyone individually. It's just very troubling to hear from forum members such reactionary response when just the tip of the iceberg is seen and known for sure. Just like many of us, for a variety of reasons, can't just pack up and leave the state no matter how bad we want to, a large business such as Beretta is no different. I think the reasonable, non-angy/reactive thing to do is to monitor their actions over time . Major decisions by large companies take time, so for individuals to decide that the company has abandoned Maryland gun owners at this juncture is premature. There too many factors, i.e. economic, political, etc. we have no knowledge of that only Beretta does. Personally I think that public statements from private companies are not held to the same standard as from public companies, so they are like pronouncements from politicians--they can have multiple meanings and are meant to be the least offensive to everyone at the time.

But as I stated, anyone is free to boycott Beretta for whatever reasons they want. I have, and always will, stand by the principle of innocent until proven (or at least substantial evidence shown to be) guilty..

 

[spfrazierjr]

Honestly, I loved Beretta before SB281 and I will love them after it even with them not moving. Hate all you want but I like the products and service. All of you saying F them and what not because they aren't moving right away need to grow up, seriously. It's impossible for them to just uproot and move because of a dumb law. They have commitments to be met and I'm sure can't afford to shut production down or even slow it down at all. Over time I'm sure they will phase production over into VA or some other state that is more pro 2A instead of building more in Maryland. I probably won't say much more in the matter, but don't boycott a company for a politicians faults.

 

[hacktracker]

Just because MOM signed SB281, doesn't mean it has taken affect.

There are forces out there now dotting the i's and crossing the t's on their challenges to the law.

Give Beretta a break and direct the negativity where it belongs.

 

[MonkeyPunch]

You are correct, I'm not responding to any individual's post, else I would have quoted it. I was responding to many of the posts collectively, with no intention to offend you or anyone individually.

Ah okay. I just got confused because your comments following my quoted post did not seem to directly respond to the subject matter I had included.

 

[webb297]

Honestly, I loved Beretta before SB281 and I will love them after it even with them not moving. Hate all you want but I like the products and service. All of you saying F them and what not because they aren't moving right away need to grow up, seriously. It's impossible for them to just uproot and move because of a dumb law. They have commitments to be met and I'm sure can't afford to shut production down or even slow it down at all. Over time I'm sure they will phase production over into VA or some other state that is more pro 2A instead of building more in Maryland. I probably won't say much more in the matter, but don't boycott a company for a politicians faults.

Nobody suggested that they just move tomorrow, so lets stop throwing that straw man around. Those who are upset at Beretta are upset that they, like the politicians who think they are our betters, said one thing, then after getting what they wanted, are looking like they will do another. Nobody is mad at Beretta for what the politicians have done, they are mad at Beretta for what it looks like Beretta is doing in response to what the politicians have done.

 

[spfrazierjr]

Nobody suggested that they just move tomorrow, so lets stop throwing that straw man around. Those who are upset at Beretta are upset that they, like the politicians who think they are our betters, said one thing, then after getting what they wanted, are looking like they will do another. Nobody is mad at Beretta for what the politicians have done, they are mad at Beretta for what it looks like Beretta is doing in response to what the politicians have done.

I don't remember them ever saying "we will leave if this passes". They may have hinted to this, but I don't think they actually came out and said it. They did not "get what they wanted" either, because if that were the case then the law would not have been passed. Oh, and to those that think the law doesn't effect Beretta I'm pretty sure you are wrong. The ARX100 has a folding stock and flash hider, which means it is banned post 10/1/13.