Beretta to remain in MD, but reevaluating plans for expansion within the state

[pbharvey]

So if 10 years from now Maryland is once again a free state, I guess Beretta should just uproot from wherever they moved to and move back to Maryland right?

 

[md123]

I am always amused when people bash a gun manufacturer!? Do think Beretta wanted ANY part of SB281?? Do you think they are anti 2 Second Amendment.....PLEASE! They MAKE firearms for crying out loud! You would be better served by not wasting your energy fighting somebody on OUR side and refocus on the politicians that want to disregard the Constitution!! Burn all your bridges and not focus on the REAL problem and you will be left to buy only Crossman air guns before long!

They benefit from sb281. Their new ar style platform (arx) was magically unscathed by the law. So they no longer compete with colt, bushmaster etc. big government and big business go hand in hand my friend.

Some ron paul types swear that behind the scenes republicans and dems laugh at us. Its all a show....they fight in front of camera but really care about money and power. Im starting to see how someone could hold that view in this instance.

So i say this: the difference between magpul and beretta is the former is run by an ex marine and the latter a board of directors. Beretta is penny wise, pound foolish.

 

[smdub]

I will never purchase one of their products.

not because they didn't move. Because they didn't FIGHT for us. They carved out their exceptions.

x2. Makes my decision of a Citori vs silver pigeon an easy one.

 

[pbharvey]

They carved out their exceptions.

That's pretty much what the shooting community tried to do too.
That's how we got our loopholes.

 

[Marksman]

Was really looking forward to buying a new M9. Not any more. No Berettas for this guy.

 

[Terphunter]

They benefit from sb281. Their new ar style platform (arx) was magically unscathed by the law. So they no longer compete with colt, bushmaster etc. big government and big business go hand in hand my friend.

Some ron paul types swear that behind the scenes republicans and dems laugh at us. Its all a show....they fight in front of camera but really care about money and power. Im starting to see how someone could hold that view in this instance.

So i say this: the difference between magpul and beretta is the former is run by an ex marine and the latter a board of directors. Beretta is penny wise, pound foolish.

Maybe they do benifit in that particular case...then good for them. They were forced into this just like the rest of us. If that loophole keeps a gun manufacture alive then good. Would you all who swear to never buy a Beretta product again rather see them go under?? Really? Who knows what their books look like...what if moving causes them to go under in 5 years?? What about all the loyal employes with families and ties to MD...uproot and change everything to keep YOU happy or we will boycott your products!

Rediculous!

Again need to focus on the REAL problems...infighting and hurting others in the industry solves zero.

 

[gamer_jim]

No Berettas for me.......ever.

Ditto. Sending them letter saying so.

 

[2AHokie]

So if 10 years from now Maryland is once again a free state, I guess Beretta should just uproot from wherever they moved to and move back to Maryland right?

If Beretta wasn't willing to leave, they shouldn't have threatened to do it. In my mind, that's all there is to it.

If, in 10 years, Beretta had moved elsewhere and threatened that state with another move over some other bill, they absolutely should move again if that state doesn't listen to them.

If they don't follow through (now or in some future hypothetical), their word is meaningless and they might as well stay home and not say anything.

You obviously Live in a happy world with the liberals of this state! and have no Idea of the real world and what it takes to not only run a business. But have employees with families ! I'm glad in your fairy world everyone can just uproot and do your bidding! As for the rest of us in the real world we will make the best of a bad situation, and fight this war for our 2nd Ammendment Rights ! Care to join us ? Or just continue to piss and moan ?

Nice personal attacks. Those are the last bastion of someone who cannot form a coherent argument or respond to the topic at hand. I'm also pretty sure they violate the forum rules.

Not that I owe you an explanation, but I went to both committee meetings to testify plus a couple other trips to Annapolis. I have done a lot more than "piss and moan" and I will continue to do a lot more such as supporting manufacturers and dealers that supports us (ie. NOT Beretta) and working to elect some more good people in 2014.

I guess you missed the part where I said "eventually could be measured in years" and the fact that "eventually" was in bold text. I really have no idea where you got the notion that I was demanding them to pack up tomorrow and "do my bidding." Reading comprehension is a good skill to have if you're going to jump to conclusions though.

My move out plan is 8 years long. Beretta's could be 10 or 20 or more. The point is that they need to formulate a plan and follow through. If it requires a lack of business from people who agree with me to get them to develop a backbone, then so be it. You can call me names all day but I still won't support them by buying their products until they make good on their word.

 

[6-Pack]

If Beretta wasn't willing to leave, they shouldn't have threatened to do it. In my mind, that's all there is to it.

If, in 10 years, Beretta had moved elsewhere and threatened that state with another move over some other bill, they absolutely should move again if that state doesn't listen to them.

If they don't follow through (now or in some future hypothetical), their word is meaningless and they might as well stay home and not say anything.

I agree. If you are going to say to everyone "we're moving if this passes" then stay, it sends the wrong message. Now in my mind their word doesn't mean anything: they talk the talk, but can't walk the walk.

Remember, Beretta could have stood by us more. They got their exemptions, so it shows they care more about the bottom line than gun owners' rights. Otherwise, they would have stood with us and not compromised once they became exempt.

I have lost respect for them (just like Scotts because of Monsanto).

 

[MadCat0911]

So, what they're saying is, the pistol I want to buy should be a Sig...

 

[Glock30Eric]

So, what they're saying is, the pistol I want to buy should be a Sig...

I had to recommend Glock.

 

[501st]

What makes all of you such experts in manufacturing and equipment moving ????? This was a extreamly hard desicision for Beretta! It would have costed the company 10's of millions of dollars !! There is no ready to go facility just over the bridge !!! Its a storage warehouse !! Unlike magPul that had injection molding equipment Which I might add are very easy to move and set up. Beretta requires over a 200000 Amp power service! There is many EPA Issues dealing with the Chrome line, Anodizing, Brunitron,Blueing,The DMP, Heat treating with caustic soda !Then there is the lead issues with the shooting tubes and EPA permits required before moving and redoing the building! Then they have 1200 HP of air compressors. Hundreds of mile of wires and air lines to power there equipment. Then there is moving and set up of there machines. The Matsui siki's took over a year to set up and thats just 6 machining centers! thay have several hundred ! then down time and not being able to deliver on contracts.There is Mag partical and metrololigy that needs a clean rooms that need a consistant air quality and temp.Beretta has its own tool grinding group that needs special air ventilation system. so does there polishing area. And what about the people that have been there 15-20 years? The avarage employee has been there 18 years. So what makes this a no brainer to just jump over the bridge??? I mentioned just a small bit of what needs to be done.You can love them or hate them . But if you have ever been there and seen both the tolarance , quality and Innovation You could better understand and appriciate what it takes to make a gun!

If moving wasn't an option for Beretta, they should have never have opened their mouths about potentially leaving if SB281 passed. They got called out on their bluff.

But that isn't even the worst part. If Beretta wasn't able to secure certain exemptions that prevented their business from being impeded, it is almost guaranteed that they would have left the state. But because they got their exemptions they now find remaining in MD to be a livable option. Despite the fact that a significant amount of their customers in this state didn't get such exemptions that made things much less onerous for them. They knew that there was a decent chance they could secure such exemptions and therefore not be as compelled to leave, but they threatened to do so anyways.

That is two strikes against beretta.

I never gave them a deadline by which they had to move. I realize such things can be long and drawn out. All I asked for was a plan/roadmap for such a move. So long as Beretta put in plans to move from MD in the not so distant Future, I would have been satisfied. So stop acting like I made some outrageous demand like saying they had to leave by the end of the year or something along those lines.


And don't take me to be a fool. I know that Beretta's facility in VA is for storage. But that is still a step up from many other gun manufacturers who have all of their facilities in one state. This facility could have been the starting point for a move from MD.

As for costs of moving? I would be surprised if VA was willing to assist with that with monetary compensation/tax breaks, ect. for such a move and a guarantee of sorts. And if what VA offered wasn't sweet enough, I'm sure other states (like Texas) would be only too happy to offer more incentives to guarantee a move. Not to mention that moving and putting their money where their mouth was would likely give them increased sales from individuals due to them backing up their claims with action. (If it worked (boycott) to discipline S&W after they added clinton locks to their revolvers, there is no reason that the opposite couldn't work) So don't act like Beretta would be paying for everything itself with no assistance at all.

Finally we get to the current employees. With a move to VA, I'm confident that a significant number of employees would be willing to work for Beretta even after that move, either moving to VA themselves or commuting from MD.

Now if there was a move to a further away state or if some employees couldn't do a VA transition? I am sympathetic to such a plight, but in the end I have to say tough luck. They had to have known that working for a gun manufacturer in a state rather hostile to the 2nd Amendment would create problems somewhere down the line. The fact that anything firearms related has been made political for quite some time has been quite telling.

And I'm fairly certain that some of these employees voted for the current incumbents (and their anti gun, anti capitalist tendencies). They had to have know that there would be negative consequences for them/their employer by doing so.

Nevermind the fact that there was no good reason for this law, crime rates have been going down nationally. The supposed reasons for this legislation weren't even being properly tracked so the effects of this legislation can't even be properly ascertained. And finally that the opposition to this bill was disproportionately higher than the supporters, but it got passed anyways.

The whole end result of this situation is that Beretta (and by extension gun owners/supporters) were made to look like O'malley's/incumbent democrats little bitch.

They made claims, then groveled to the state to get exemptions, then reneged on those claims. What kind of message does that send?

If we learned anything from this, it is that you do not make threats that you aren't willing to carry out/act on unless you want to look like a fool and/or lose credibility.

BERETTA CANNOT BREAK ITS CONTRACT WITH THE GOV'T. IF THEY DECIDED TO BREAK THE CONTRACT THEN THEY WILL BE DEBARRED TO MAKE A CONTRACT WITH GOV'T ON ALL LEVEL (FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL). THAT IS A SUICIDE MOVE ON BERETTA. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS.

Beretta's biggest customer is Gov't. Please give the respect where it is due at.

AFAIK, they only had to make the guns in the US, not specifically in MD. So much for that claim.

 

[rtse4me]

Interesting, I wonder about LWRC? Did they get any exceptions?
Their REPR and Six8 should still be legal after 10/1. Wonder if they got the M6 & IC classified as an hbar or something.

 

[md123]

I get the feeling people who are defending beretta weren't in Annapolis for 10-12 hour days like some of us. So its reasonable for them to think Beretta did a swell job fighting the bill.

Well i was there. I saw inspiring things out of MD citizens fighting insurmountable odds. I also saw a single person from Beretta who looked like his new rifle was exempt from the bill.

I don't care that they aren't leaving now or ever. I'm angry that they couldn't even fake moderate concern for regular citizens.

I would have been satisfied with even a token effort. Too much to bus in 25 employees for a hearing? Run a full page ad in a newspaper? Act like you have some conviction (even if it's just a lie)? Throw me a bone.

I hope they sell a million crappy ARX 160's to their captive Maryland audience. Monopolies are very nice if you can buy (I mean get) them.

Thats all I have to say about this.

 

[Boss94]

Well Ban me if you must! They may very well move ( and in time I believe they will) But thats there plan not Ours. I personally like them here to Remind MOM he didn't 100% get his way , And that there is still a large gun manufacture in his state! You mention Mike Miller I know several companies that Gave to him, News Flash Politicians are liers! They will deceive whom ever or what ever to get what they want.Mike Told Many of us including myself he wouldn't vote for the bill!

And you don't think Beretta won't look for better Politicians and have the purse strings to help them ? I see it as Partnership in the firearms business . You see it as THEM ! There people who work there that live and Breath guns. And there are others its a 9-5. I know many if Beretta pulled out couldn't find a job and could not afford to move. Many are friends! I commend you on your 2 trips to Annapolis. I was there to! And so was Beretta. I believe if Beretta has a big fault in this whole mess, is that They underestimated the other side and felt like we all did in the begining that they had this! I only hope they have realized that they are better to work with others than on there own.

1 thing you learn working with Italians is it takes a long time for them to trust! But once they do your family! And I believe they felt they owed it to there employees not to walk out on them . We can agree to disagree! Or make some lemonade out of the lemons given to us.There still getting my support! Sometimes people need to look at the bigger picture. I believe our forefathers did just that !

 

[pbharvey]

I get the feeling people who are defending beretta weren't in Annapolis for 10-12 hour days like some of us. So its reasonable for them to think Beretta did a swell job fighting the bill.

I was. I went to Annapolis 6 times. I walked back to the stadium parking lot at 3:30 AM on that famous night in the House.
I watched the Beretta guys get their balls busted when one of the legislators said something to the effect of, "Tell me about the gun laws in Italy. Is it legal for the citizens of Italy to purchase the guns you manufacture there?" If I remember they danced around a direct answer but the point was made. I have no love affair with Beretta any more than other manufacturers. I think they are in a catch 22. Maybe they bluffed but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they were throwing everything at it that they had.

Maryland needs more gun manufacturers, not fewer.

 

[IndispensableDestiny]

If you are going to boycot Beretta, then you also need to boycot Benelli, Franchi, SAKO, Stoeger, Tikka, Uberti, and Burris Optics. They are all owned by Beretta Holdings.

 

[danb]

I was. I went to Annapolis 6 times. I walked back to the stadium parking lot at 3:30 AM on that famous night in the House.
I watched the Beretta guys get their balls busted when one of the legislators said something to the effect of, "Tell me about the gun laws in Italy. Is it legal for the citizens of Italy to purchase the guns you manufacture there?" If I remember they danced around a direct answer but the point was made. I have no love affair with Beretta any more than other manufacturers. I think they are in a catch 22. Maybe they bluffed but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they were throwing everything at it that they had.

Maryland needs more gun manufacturers, not fewer.

As some have mentioned, just the process of looking for a new facility can be very complicated and there are contractual issues and other legal stuff to worry about. There are issues far to numerous to mention, and I am guessing that if they have any key person dependencies on people with security clearances, that adds another layer.

I am going to hold off judging for a while.

Still, it would be nice if they at least contributed to the cause of getting the law challenged in court (unless they are somehow legally restricted from doing this, which would be nice to know).

 

[Omega21]

I will never purchase one of their products. Not because they didn't move. Because they didn't FIGHT for us. ...but if they chose to ignore me as a customer, I chose to ignore them as a manufacturer.

THIS!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson#Agreement_of_2000
...look what can happen if you piss off the gun community.

While you are posting what Beretta did on other forums, include this like to remind people of the power of a boycott.

I suggest our membership refuse joining a circular firing squad and leave that to the politicians.

So far this thread is a pretty well thought out and argued discussion on all sides of the issue. I don't think people disagreeing among friends and collegues and having a passionate debate is a circular firing squad.

As far as the comments about "I don't see you moving out of state" those are simply not comparable to the issue at hand. If 100 MDShooters members all moved to VA or TX in protest, who would know? What impact would it have? You think that would make the news? If Beretta on the other hand said they were curtailing operations in MD and will start planning a move to a more 2A friendly place in response to the bill THAT would make national news far more than Magpul's move. Beretta is a household name and them standing up for 2A in this state would garner attention nationally. So it's not about the 300 jobs that would move (I agree MOM wouldn't care), it's about the attention the action would bring to the issue.

At the end of the day, it appears Beretta made a decision based not on American principles, but on business principles.

 

[PapiBarcelona]

LOL if it takes any company, technicians a year to setup 6 cnc machining.centers, you should set your sail for fail.