HR402 introduced in the House: Nationwide reciprocity

[Brooklyn]

How much is this permit going to cost us? What is the renewal period? Training requirement(s)?
Currently everything is free. Must we pay to exercise our constitutional right?

The starategy leading us down the path of incrementalism

So you want to abandon the court fight for shall issue?

Background checks are not free in any state I have done business in..
But the plain fact is that the current system allows data to be collected, which data is essential to the gun registry.. no data not registry.

Keep you head in the sand...its worked well since 1934

See in 1934 I would be on your side of this debate..but its not.. and we need to move the needle back.. may issue becomes shall issue becomes " constitutional carry.

Or not..

The train is leaving.. most folks are not going to insist on permit less carry.and few will consider it until a few years of shall issue..

So seriously should we abandon the court case?

Moreover you can still carry without a permit in any state that allows it. Or at risk of procesution anywhere else.

There is in the post 1934 world no downside.. and plenty of risk if the court dallies

And what if next school shooting was a private transfer 3 steps removed to a mental patient... ?

 

[redeemed.man]

UBC = universal background checks gun registry.

100% correct. A wolf by any other name is still a wolf.

 

[Inigoes]

So you want to abandon the court fight for shall issue?

Background checks are not free in any state I have done business in..
But the plain fact is that the current system allows data to be collected, which data is essential to the gun registry.. no data not registry.

Keep you head in the sand...its worked well since 1934

See in 1934 I would be on your side of this debate..but its not.. and we need to move the needle back.. may issue becomes shall issue becomes " constitutional carry.

Or not..

The train is leaving.. most folks are not going to insist on permit less carry.and few will consider it until a few years of shall issue..

So seriously should we abandon the court case?

Moreover you can still carry without a permit in any state that allows it. Or at risk of procesution anywhere else.

There is in the post 1934 world no downside.. and plenty of risk if the court dallies

And what if next school shooting was a private transfer 3 steps removed to a mental patient... ?

At the federal level there is no cost associated with a 4473. PA does not charge a fee for a firearm sale.

The FFL charges a fee for their time, equipment, and facilities.

Maryland is the only state I have come across that explicitly charges a fee for a firearm sale.

 

[Brooklyn]

At the federal level there is no cost associated with a 4473. PA does not charge a fee for a firearm sale.

The FFL charges a fee for their time, equipment, and facilities.

Maryland is the only state I have come across that explicitly charges a fee for a firearm sale.

So if the permit process were free,or run by the private sector you are fine with it?

Pa charges as well BTW A whole $5. Pics fee . thus making it consistent with binding precedent. Its for the background check.



Now should we abandon the fight for shall we issue? After all its not constitutional carry..?

 

[press1280]

Not sure how ubc got brought up, since that won't pass either house of congress.

 

[ryan_j]

So if the permit process were free,or run by the private sector you are fine with it?

Pa charges as well BTW A whole $5. Pics fee . thus making it consistent with binding precedent. Its for the background check.



Now should we abandon the fight for shall we issue? After all its not constitutional carry..?

It's not just the NICS check cost. In NJ the NICS cost is $15 (some dealers will add on extra, apparently they can) plus if you're going through a FFL they will charge a transfer fee. Some may not want to do transfers as they want to move their own inventory. There was one dealer charging $100 for a transfer, seems ridiculous that a $250 shot gun would warrant a $100 transfer fee. The lowest I've seen is $20 plus NICS and there is also a club/range that does it for $5 plus NICS.

There is also the issue of the Government being able to shut down NICS at a moment's notice. In NJ it is closed on state holidays. It also closes early due to bad weather. In 2013 after Sandy Hook, "instant" NICS checks went from a few minutes to days, then weeks.

Private sales without a background check are a way to ensure that we can still buy/sell/trade without the Government shutting it down.

 

[Mooseman]

Even if I can't carry here on my Florida permit if it passes, it seems it would make our fight for shall issue easier since now we the tax paying residents still couldn't carry here but everybody else could. Seems to be a win if it passes.

I am thinking along the same lines.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Haven't seen this yet.

Wouldn't a Maryland resident who can't get a Maryland CCW permit be able to carry in Maryland under a CCW permit from another state since all states would be recognized in Maryland under the new national law.

 

[Brooklyn]

It's not just the NICS check cost. In NJ the NICS cost is $15 (some dealers will add on extra, apparently they can) plus if you're going through a FFL they will charge a transfer fee. Some may not want to do transfers as they want to move their own inventory. There was one dealer charging $100 for a transfer, seems ridiculous that a $250 shot gun would warrant a $100 transfer fee. The lowest I've seen is $20 plus NICS and there is also a club/range that does it for $5 plus NICS.

There is also the issue of the Government being able to shut down NICS at a moment's notice. In NJ it is closed on state holidays. It also closes early due to bad weather. In 2013 after Sandy Hook, "instant" NICS checks went from a few minutes to days, then weeks.

Private sales without a background check are a way to ensure that we can still buy/sell/trade without the Government shutting it down.

The proposal I am making does away with NICS. uBC is done via a nationally recognized carry permit issues pursuitant to Federal standards by any issueing authority , most likely states but also including the Fed. Shall issue, objective standards, state of residence not a factor..

Show the permit....done.. private sale dealer sale done..

The key to preventing a Nightmare UBC system designed to obstuct is to design one that does not..it also neatly allows us to prove in court that the legislature deliberately failed to adopt a narrowly tailored solution thus helping impeach it in court under IS and SS standard of review.

Akan Gotlieb believes as I do that UBC will pass eventually. I want a good bill and I want national carry and real FOPA before I consider it.

But as a package we may just get it past a veto..esp if enough soft R. Can use the UBC as cover while the vulnerable D use National carry as their cover.


Since no data is exchanged at time of sale no shutdown risk..
Plus no firearms data need be collected so no gun Registry..

I have been talking about this since last year.

Now if you really think the court will strike UBC or that it will never pass that's another issue.

Likewise if you think I missed something we can patch.

The train is leaving..even many R want a clean UBC going into 2016..

Give it some real thought..

 

[Brooklyn]

Not sure how ubc got brought up, since that won't pass either house of congress.

Alan Gotlieb thinks it will.. it almost did last year and if the oposition plays smart it will pass on a clean bill.
But who cares.. he can't know what he is doing right?

 

[danb]

Not sure how ubc got brought up, since that won't pass either house of congress.

Never say never. Depends on what the GOP needs to do to get past a filibuster, or get the additional votes to override a veto.

 

[MikeTF]

Not sure how ubc got brought up, since that won't pass either house of congress.

Thank goodness!

 

[T'Challa]

Without seeing the bill, this could be bad or good for Marylander's.

If it says something to the effect states have to recognize validly-issued out of state carry permits, states may drop issuance of non resident permits - no longer a need to issue them (states do not issue non-resident drivers licenses). States are not going to do something that helps residents of only a few states. It could end up meaning that Marylander's must get a Maryland permit. I do not personally see the MD, NY, NJ legislatures conceding here, I see them being intractable. To ensure this does not happen it would have to force states to shall issue, which I do not see happening either.

Maybe a good thing nationally, but it could be good or bad for MDers depending on what's in it and how states adjust.

Disagree.... in part..... A shall issue state is just that "shall issue." These states don't care so long as you apply and aren't a criminal or legal barred from carrying.

 

[Brooklyn]

Haven't seen this yet.

Wouldn't a Maryland resident who can't get a Maryland CCW permit be able to carry in Maryland under a CCW permit from another state since all states would be recognized in Maryland under the new national law.

If nr permits are allowed. Frankly that may be the poison pill that kills it.. even gun friendly state are skidish on this NV does not accept UT because UT has no live fire required.

This is also complicated by noise about states rights.

If we do this right we can get the full support of pro states and enough suppor form pro portions of unfriendly states. ..

But we still need the President.. or veto override.

Put it on a must sign bill and then potus gets to pick a fight with the do nothing Congress... but get even close to an override and give him some cover like a UBC that actually makes life better for gun owners and maybe he will call it his own.

Frankly its our best play until the court rules... and it it rules against or we get H. Clinton in office... then we are going to get but f..ked

You will not like the UBC that she will sign..

After newtown they overreached.. maybe they will again...but the Clinton's are much better at this game than the big O.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Screw states rights when those rights are employed to hamper the safety and protection of its citizens.

 

[MDFF2008]

I could give you UBC in a way that would might work. UBC is basically an unenforceable joke, but we could potentially sell it in a way that is not harmful.

I have often thought it might be a smart idea to allow private individuals to run NICS checks on themselves. That's how you sell it, not as UBC, but as creating a new layer for private individuals to ensure they are selling to a lawful buyer. You could go to a gun show, and just bring your NICS check. A phone number and serial number can be used to verify authenticity.

Checks are good for 24 hours, and are free. You don't have to provide any information on if you are purchasing a gun or not, nor do you have to disclose make/model, or if you decided not to buy.

A good marketing firm could clean Bloomberg's clock with that proposal.

 

[Brooklyn]

I could give you UBC in a way that would might work. UBC is basically an unenforceable joke, but we could potentially sell it in a way that is not harmf


ul.

I have often thought it might be a smart idea to allow private individuals to run NICS checks on themselves. That's how you sell it, not as UBC, but as creating a new layer for private individuals to ensure they are selling to a lawful buyer. You could go to a gun show, and just bring your NICS check. A phone number and serial number can be used to verify authenticity.

Checks are good for 24 hours, and are free. You don't have to provide any information on if you are purchasing a gun or not, nor do you have to disclose make/model, or if you decided not to buy.

A good marketing firm could clean Bloomberg's clock with that proposal.

That could work.. but
1. No need for national carry... I want national carry or no deal.
2. Anything open to the public will be hacked.. likely within a week.. Not good.

3. It will not take long to reverse engineer the hash algorthium and make counterfiet certifications .

4. The idea is to eliminate NICS or rather turn it into the permit back ground check..

Call number confirm permit done..

But your idea is also a good one if I coujd be sure of security.


As far as enforcement.. as you note any sale to a prohibited person is risky the permit would allow us to create a safe harbor for gun sales.. it would tend to enforce itself as there is no cost. Or incremental cost.


But as you note, the key to a safe ubc or any BC is to prevent collection of firearms data which has nothing to do with the check..

Collection of such data as part of a backgroud check fails IS .

They will need to invent some other excuse for collecting that data.

 

[gamer_jim]

They need to tack it onto something Obama really wants, like the credit card reform bill for the national parks thing a few years ago.

 

[MikeTF]

I could give you UBC in a way that would might work. UBC is basically an unenforceable joke, but we could potentially sell it in a way that is not harmful.

I have often thought it might be a smart idea to allow private individuals to run NICS checks on themselves. That's how you sell it, not as UBC, but as creating a new layer for private individuals to ensure they are selling to a lawful buyer. You could go to a gun show, and just bring your NICS check. A phone number and serial number can be used to verify authenticity.

Checks are good for 24 hours, and are free. You don't have to provide any information on if you are purchasing a gun or not, nor do you have to disclose make/model, or if you decided not to buy.

A good marketing firm could clean Bloomberg's clock with that proposal.

That is a creative solution! Way to think out of the box! In VA some folks ask to see a CCW permit and drivers license to do a face to face sale, then it's a purely cash transaction with no need for record keeping of any kind.

 

[5.56blaster]

Something like this was introduced during Bush's time in office but I think it missed by just a few votes then.