Worth reloading 12 gauge?

[SOMDSHOOT]

Time out, for one minute.

I agree quite a bit with what fabsroman said in his post, just a couple above this.

Calling someone a ________ (any name) because they don't see eye-to-eye with you, is not only un-called for, it's just not 'right'.
This is exactly why there is chocolate, vanilla and strawberry ice cream. Not everyone likes the same 'stuff'.

Some of us do not cast our own slugs, nor do we WANT or NEED to.

I'd much rather spend my time doing something else, than cast/load/test/re-test a homegrown lead slug.

Sorry, SOMDSHOOT...... calling any of us "Suckers" just isn't called for.

Ok I can retract the sucker comment. That's how the bullet company see's the customer...

However, noone yet has ever disagreed with me, that buying commercial Muzzleloader bullets is a complete scam. I give my Muzzleloader bullets away to many guys. I'll give them a pack of 20 to shoot and try and they keep coming back wanting more. We all know why the commercial M/L bullets cost what they cost and it's certainly not because they are "worth" that much. Don't think I have not been suckered in to somethings in my life, but, I realize what happened and make sure it never happens again. That's basically my point.

Think about it this way. If you buy 20 bullets at $30.00 then what does it cost to buy a box of 50 or 100 reloading bullets of the same make model as the 20 bullets you buy in a blister pack ? A 50 count box of sabots is only $6.00. You have now gotten 50 bullets for less than a commercial pack of "Muzzleloader Bullets" and you can get a better selection that what is on the store shelf. I just took it one step further and just cast my own.

Here's an example of my point:

1) Hornady XTP Bullets 45 Caliber (452 Diameter) 250 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 100 - $24.00 / 100 bullets ( Average store stocked ML bullets 240 gr.)

2) 100 sabots @ $14.00 ( on average from any source )

Total @ $38.00 / 100 ML bullets

How much would 100 of the bullets you guys shoot cost ?

I cast my own bullets. It costs me about $15.00 to make 500 bullets. Even if you buy copper jackets .45 cal reloading bullets and put them in your own sabots you are still way ahead of the commercial 20 pack prices.

Afterall where did the sabot muzzleloader bullet come from to start with ?

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

Now, even speaking about a "sabot shotgun slug" $3.00 to $5.00 a shell ?!?!?!
I don't think so. I don't give a rats ass how fancy that bullet is.

 

[byf43]

Now, even speaking about a "sabot shotgun slug" $3.00 to $5.00 a shell ?!?!?!
I don't think so. I don't give a rats ass how fancy that bullet is.

I think you 'just don't get it'.

There are those of us in this community that aren't 'knocking' what 'you' do with 'your' cast boolits. 'We' (me included!) don't appreciate the "in your face" condesecending posts about what 'we' do, or use.


What you're doing is no better than what we're doing.
We're all shooting what we want, how we want.
Stop trying to show that what you use is superior....... because it really isn't!
(As far as I'm concerned.)


Now, I'm done with this thread.

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

I think you 'just don't get it'.

There are those of us in this community that aren't 'knocking' what 'you' do with 'your' cast boolits. 'We' (me included!) don't appreciate the "in your face" condesecending posts about what 'we' do, or use.


What you're doing is no better than what we're doing.
(This is 1000% true. I'm just doing it a whole lot cheaper )

We're all shooting what we want, how we want.
Stop trying to show that what you use is superior....... because it really isn't!
(As far as I'm concerned.)


Now, I'm done with this thread.

I understand your argument. I'm not trying to be superior to anything. All I'm trying to do is show you how to do it cheaper and stop paying those high prices when there is a cheaper alternative. That's all it is. Nothing more. I am in no way trying to say use what I use or I don't like you no more. LOL That thinking, or assumption, is completely wrong.

My whole point is why do you want to pay so much more for something when you can have the same thing for much less. That doesn't include casting your own bullets. That does include buying the same bullet in a bulk box and using your own plastic sabots. I don't know how to make it any clearer. I personally do not care what "there other guy" uses. He can pay all he wants to pay if he wants to walk through that door where the commercial company is obviously taking full advantage of the customer. Hey, that's the other guys problem. I just choose to use a cheaper alternative and not pay out the snot hole for something I don't have to.

I'm simply trying to help the other guy out by saying hey look, why don't you consider doing it this way and saving lots of money. But, some guys will never see the light. Some guys will say hey you know what...

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

Here's another way to view all of this side-tracking. The thread started with Bronsononson wanting to know if it is cheaper to reload shotshells for clays versus buying them, in his case, probably not, however, we got side-tracked on sabot slugs with hkbob's reply.

The story behind this entire thread is simply that everyone is trying to find a "cheaper alternative" to what they are doing, which has been my whole argument, point, whatever you want to call it. Therefore, I am not posting trying to make you use what I am using, or do what I am doing, or anything of that sort. All I am trying to convey is how to do what you are doing with examples of "cheaper alternatives" of how to do it, however, it has turned in to a thread trying to tell me that I am trying to tell others what to do and how to do it. I understand the thread and and what it's about, but, some folks appear to not understand the points being made about the base subjects of finding "cheaper alternatives", but, would rather turn it in to something is completely not.

Now, if you want to pay too much for something when there is clearly a cheaper way to do it... hey man it's your money. Enjoy those expensive bullets. Like it was said, "What you're doing is no better than what we're doing" I can not agree with that statement more. I'm just shooting more bullets and killing the same Deer for much less investment. Absolutely correct. That's all I have to say on this thread regarding sabot any thing.

 

[PapiBarcelona]

Cliff notes?

 

[fabsroman]

I leave this thread for one day and all hell breaks loose. Lmao next i suppose you guys are going to pull out your dicks to see who's is bigger? Yes?

Since we are discussing firearms and ammunition, it is all about who has the bigger "gun". A lot of hunters swear by this and that, etc. Nothing new. We also understand that we get ripped off a decent amount by "marketing". For instance, I bought a Mojo Goose for $150+ when these things first came out. Yeah, it SUCKS. It flares the geese and they will not commit. Unless I run it with a remote and turn the damn thing off once the geese turn our way, it is a sure way to make sure we don't shoot at all that day. Now, the Mojo Mallard works great. Mojo dove, still not decided one way or another about it. Mojo crow is a complete mess. The crows know that thing is fake from a mile away. The mojo teal works great. So, I have a couple of Mojos sitting here collecting dust.

I was going to get started about using steel versus Hevi-Shot, but I will leave that for another day. lol

 

[fabsroman]

Ok I can retract the sucker comment. That's how the bullet company see's the customer...

However, noone yet has ever disagreed with me, that buying commercial Muzzleloader bullets is a complete scam. I give my Muzzleloader bullets away to many guys. I'll give them a pack of 20 to shoot and try and they keep coming back wanting more. We all know why the commercial M/L bullets cost what they cost and it's certainly not because they are "worth" that much. Don't think I have not been suckered in to somethings in my life, but, I realize what happened and make sure it never happens again. That's basically my point.

Think about it this way. If you buy 20 bullets at $30.00 then what does it cost to buy a box of 50 or 100 reloading bullets of the same make model as the 20 bullets you buy in a blister pack ? A 50 count box of sabots is only $6.00. You have now gotten 50 bullets for less than a commercial pack of "Muzzleloader Bullets" and you can get a better selection that what is on the store shelf. I just took it one step further and just cast my own.

Here's an example of my point:

1) Hornady XTP Bullets 45 Caliber (452 Diameter) 250 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 100 - $24.00 / 100 bullets ( Average store stocked ML bullets 240 gr.)

2) 100 sabots @ $14.00 ( on average from any source )

Total @ $38.00 / 100 ML bullets

How much would 100 of the bullets you guys shoot cost ?

I cast my own bullets. It costs me about $15.00 to make 500 bullets. Even if you buy copper jackets .45 cal reloading bullets and put them in your own sabots you are still way ahead of the commercial 20 pack prices.

Afterall where did the sabot muzzleloader bullet come from to start with ?

It really is the SUCKER comment that irritates me. If we were out hunting, or even on this chat board, and discussing bullets and their performance, I would be just fine with it. However, being called a SUCKER sort of gets the conversation off to a bad start. Kind of like me calling you a poor idiot. Most people wouldn't take that too kindly.

If this is solely based upon a cost comparison, then how about factoring in my time since my billable rate is $170 an hour. It makes ZERO sense for me to reload anything whatsoever if I have billable work that I could be working on instead. Again, the only reason I reload is because I like to do it as a hobby, not because of the cost savings. When I was just out of undergrad, reloading made economic sense because I had tons of time on my hands and I was poor as can be.

End of the day, some of us just aren't too worried about the monetary aspect of the minor stuff. Most of my waterfowling is done with Hevi-Shot loads at a cost of about $3 a shell. Costs almost $10 to unload the gun at the birds.

I am all for saving money, but sometimes it just does not make sense. Kind of like driving all over God's creation searching for ammo.

We can argue the nuances of your cast bullets versus the Barnes Expander, but I would want to see some retrieved bullets from game. I'll admit that I did not look at your pics before posting last night. You cast bullet does look somewhat interesting. I have to wonder how well it expands and holds together. That would be one of my first issues. I understand that antimony makes lead harder because I use high antimony content shot to prevent shot deformation, but the question becomes whether it makes the lead more brittle. Hence, instead of a mushroom effect on the slug, it breaks apart when it hits bone, etc. Ballistic coefficient would be another (e.g., what am I looking at for hold over at 150 yards).

If I did as much deer hunting as I used to, I'd pay you for some of your cast slugs and see how they work. However, I tend to spend all of my hunting time wing shooting nowadays. That has always been my passion and since I can no longer hunt 50+ days a year now that I have a wife and kids, I spend my hunting time on what I enjoy the most.

Again, I have no issue discussing gear and equipment. I just have an issue with being called a SUCKER by somebody that does not even know me. Granted, I am sure that all of us at some time or another have been SUCKERS. lol

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

It really is the SUCKER comment that irritates me. If we were out hunting, or even on this chat board, and discussing bullets and their performance, I would be just fine with it. However, being called a SUCKER sort of gets the conversation off to a bad start. Kind of like me calling you a poor idiot. Most people wouldn't take that too kindly.

If this is solely based upon a cost comparison, then how about factoring in my time since my billable rate is $170 an hour. It makes ZERO sense for me to reload anything whatsoever if I have billable work that I could be working on instead. Again, the only reason I reload is because I like to do it as a hobby, not because of the cost savings. When I was just out of undergrad, reloading made economic sense because I had tons of time on my hands and I was poor as can be.

End of the day, some of us just aren't too worried about the monetary aspect of the minor stuff. Most of my waterfowling is done with Hevi-Shot loads at a cost of about $3 a shell. Costs almost $10 to unload the gun at the birds.

I am all for saving money, but sometimes it just does not make sense. Kind of like driving all over God's creation searching for ammo.

We can argue the nuances of your cast bullets versus the Barnes Expander, but I would want to see some retrieved bullets from game. I'll admit that I did not look at your pics before posting last night. You cast bullet does look somewhat interesting. I have to wonder how well it expands and holds together. That would be one of my first issues. I understand that antimony makes lead harder because I use high antimony content shot to prevent shot deformation, but the question becomes whether it makes the lead more brittle. Hence, instead of a mushroom effect on the slug, it breaks apart when it hits bone, etc. Ballistic coefficient would be another (e.g., what am I looking at for hold over at 150 yards).

If I did as much deer hunting as I used to, I'd pay you for some of your cast slugs and see how they work. However, I tend to spend all of my hunting time wing shooting nowadays. That has always been my passion and since I can no longer hunt 50+ days a year now that I have a wife and kids, I spend my hunting time on what I enjoy the most.

Again, I have no issue discussing gear and equipment. I just have an issue with being called a SUCKER by somebody that does not even know me. Granted, I am sure that all of us at some time or another have been SUCKERS. lol

Here's three of my 45-70 Govt HP cast bullet recoveries from three past Deer in the past 2 years. Others have been lost due to pass-throughs at closer than 50 yard shots. Those I can't claim debate with physically. These are 75-80 yard shots. There's about 35 cents worth of lead here. I have no idea which photo looks better from the camera to the computer.

.

 

[fabsroman]

Here's three of my 45-70 Govt HP cast bullet recoveries from three past Deer in the past 2 years. Others have been lost due to pass-throughs at closer than 50 yard shots. Those I can't claim debate with physically. These are 75-80 yard shots. There's about 35 cents worth of lead here. I have no idea which photo looks better from the camera to the computer.

.

Right side photo looks better. The left side has too many shadows that throw off the expansion size.

What was the shot placement like on those three, if you can remember? The reason I am so stuck on the Barnes Expander is because of how far it went through the doe and what it went through to get there. Not only that, but it was still in one piece after going through all that.

I think we are splitting hairs on the performance factor here. You'll win hands down on the cost factor, but sometimes the convenience factor outweighs the cost savings as I previously mentioned. I hardly have time to reload nowadays and hardly use slugs anymore. So, it is just way more convenient for me to spend $50+ on Federal Barnes Expanders on the rare occasion I am going deer hunting in a slug gun area, and be done with it. Same thing happens with waterfowling sometimes. If a buddy calls me with a waterfowling opportunity and I don't have the shells on the shelf, I just go out and buy them at BPS or have my wife run over to BPS after she gets off work.

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

Right side photo looks better. The left side has too many shadows that throw off the expansion size.

What was the shot placement like on those three, if you can remember? The reason I am so stuck on the Barnes Expander is because of how far it went through the doe and what it went through to get there. Not only that, but it was still in one piece after going through all that.

I think we are splitting hairs on the performance factor here. You'll win hands down on the cost factor, but sometimes the convenience factor outweighs the cost savings as I previously mentioned. I hardly have time to reload nowadays and hardly use slugs anymore. So, it is just way more convenient for me to spend $50+ on Federal Barnes Expanders on the rare occasion I am going deer hunting in a slug gun area, and be done with it. Same thing happens with waterfowling sometimes. If a buddy calls me with a waterfowling opportunity and I don't have the shells on the shelf, I just go out and buy them at BPS or have my wife run over to BPS after she gets off work.

All of my shots are either left or right side behind the shoulder and center of the body. I have not shot a Deer from my tree stands in a long time with a gun and these three bullets are all from open field shots. Not a single piece of lead is missing from these three bullets. They stay intact like a solid old school shotgun slug. All three mushroom larger than the dime in the photo for comparison. As far as how flat they will mushroom out. I retook a photo with all three against the long edge of a standard cigarette lighter. These bullets will fold back over themselves a little, but, they do not shred apart by any means.

From reply #50 - "The bullet entered her rear right hip and it was lodged in her left front shoulder." - There's really nothing between those two points besides some upper intestine, a little membrane, and a lot of air. The bullet really didn't go through much at all. I don't want to get in to debates of anatomy here, but, when a Deer is standing, from those two points, there's really nothing in the way. Honestly, there's not much there of "going through all that". The membrane at the bottom of the backbones is the supporting harness for everything that hangs from it. There's a lot of air between the backbone and the intestinal sack and the vitals. The sort of hang there by that membrane. Without that membrane a Deer would always look bloated. It's like a giant air pocket in there. The bullet never traveled though a "solid mass" or multiple parts of anything as one might think.

.

 

[Bronsononson]

I guess if I ever get into muzzle loading I guess I'll return to this thread. But for the few with some great advice, I've made a note of the posts and your usernames. Thank you for the insight.

 

[hubel585]

Check our 12ga FH thread in Shotguns, for info about our 12ga Super Sabot
that use 58cal Minie bullets, load super cheap.Much Less than buck each.
Uses the Minies that measure
.574-.577"..Here is pic. lot more in the thread.Ed

 

[Augie]

Back to reloading 12 gauge target loads. I was in Walmart and noticed the cheap 4 packs are now up t0 30 bucks or 7.50 a box. I just calculated my latest cost on my 1 oz practice and sporting clays loads and I am reloading for 4.63 a box so there now is a significant savings on practice ammo.When I first started reloading the difference was only 1.50.
Shooting 8 box's or more a week the savings adds up, clay shooting is not a cheap sport so reloading will help with the cost. You have to buy in bulk to realize the savings.

 

[Redcobra]

Back to reloading 12 gauge target loads. I was in Walmart and noticed the cheap 4 packs are now up t0 30 bucks or 7.50 a box. I just calculated my latest cost on my 1 oz practice and sporting clays loads and I am reloading for 4.63 a box so there now is a significant savings on practice ammo.When I first started reloading the difference was only 1.50.
Shooting 8 box's or more a week the savings adds up, clay shooting is not a cheap sport so reloading will help with the cost. You have to buy in bulk to realize the savings.

Hey Augie:
Try 7/8oz #8.5 for 16yd trap practice (and skeet). Past the 20, 7/8oz is a little weak.
I'm shootin 3/4oz 20g for skeet these days.

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

Back to reloading 12 gauge target loads. I was in Walmart and noticed the cheap 4 packs are now up t0 30 bucks or 7.50 a box. I just calculated my latest cost on my 1 oz practice and sporting clays loads and I am reloading for 4.63 a box so there now is a significant savings on practice ammo.When I first started reloading the difference was only 1.50.
Shooting 8 box's or more a week the savings adds up, clay shooting is not a cheap sport so reloading will help with the cost. You have to buy in bulk to realize the savings.

I noticed the same thing just yesterday at the La Plata, MD WalMart, Last time I noticed the price they were $23.98 just 2-3 weeks ago. Now they are $31.98 yesterday. Reloading for clays just got more reasonable.

 

[Bronsononson]

Is it possible to mimic a "AA" load with Gun club or any other hulls?

 

[Winterborn]

Is it possible to mimic a "AA" load with Gun club or any other hulls?

Anything is possible. By "mimic" you mean, for example, the same as an AA127 - 1 1/8 oz 7.5 shot at around 1145 fps?

You can duplicate any factory load by reloading....in some circumstances you can exceed factory loads. For example, personally I load a 1 oz load of #8 shot to around 1300 fps....for me it is more accurate when shooting clays.

Thats one of the advantages of reloading, you can save a bit of coin and tailor your load to suit yourself, rather than relying on factory stuff.

 

[Augie]

Is it possible to mimic a "AA" load with Gun club or any other hulls?

Sure, the AA wads and clone AA wads, Claybuster, Green Duster, etc, work fine in the Remington hulls, both the AA and Remington hulls are tapered hulls.
They will not work well in The federal or eurotrash hulls, you do need to match your components to the hull you are using. As I stated earlier I only reload Remington and AA hulls.
Look at the data on the Allaint or Hodgdon websites and spend some time in the reloading section on Shotgun World.,it will give you some idea of what works.
Just remember that just because Alliant or Hodgdon list data for a load it is not necessarily a good reliable load.
Where do you shoot? If I happen to be there I would be happy to talk with you about shotshell reloading.

 

[Bronsononson]

Sure, the AA wads and clone AA wads, Claybuster, Green Duster, etc, work fine in the Remington hulls, both the AA and Remington hulls are tapered hulls.
They will not work well in The federal or eurotrash hulls, you do need to match your components to the hull you are using. As I stated earlier I only reload Remington and AA hulls.
Look at the data on the Allaint or Hodgdon websites and spend some time in the reloading section on Shotgun World.,it will give you some idea of what works.
Just remember that just because Alliant or Hodgdon list data for a load it is not necessarily a good reliable load.
Where do you shoot? If I happen to be there I would be happy to talk with you about shotshell reloading.

I shoot at PG Park lately. Past few weeks on Tuesday afternoons/nights. Occasionally AGC Wednesday nights and Saturday or Sunday morning. All depending on work schedule.