Sue ffls for not releasing

[iH8DemLibz]

Yes, 7 days to "cool off".

But the next 83+ days become the "boiling over" period.

7 days to cool off is acceptable.

90 days is a Frozen Tundra and is unacceptable.

 

[Wojo]

That may happen with some obscure, isolated incident on a person to person level. But this is a question that has been asked thousands of times in the last week. They would not be able to say Joe Blow doesnt work here anymore, and we dont know what you are talking about.

I would agree with you if an agent of the ATF put something on official letterhead or in an affidavit etc... THEN they would not be able to say we never said that.

For clarity, I do not think the FFLs are breaking MD law, federal I still do not think they are breaking the law BUT not having the NTN (although it seems via Google fu Brady law may allow release without if the POC was contacted after 3 days; could be wrong here not a lawyer) would scare me in the face of an ATF audit. Could be explainable, but just not a risk I think I would take.

 

[webb297]

Were all in the same fight regardless of differences. There's no need to stand in little clicks and go at people that you need to be on the same page. Were already out numbered and people want to send off the vibe that ::certain:: people ain't good enough. I'm already getting (warned) for whatever reasons by mods I guess. Probably for being new and putting people in there place.

Think I'm done with this forum already.

Look I think we are on the same page. Most of us here feel that we are all fighting the same fight, and should try to not have clicks, that is why we react so strongly when somebody come on the board and suggests that that FFLs should be sued. That is not how you work together in trying to advance our cause. Believe me, being new and post count do not mean near as much as what you say and how you say it. Dont leave the board over this, I have found that everyone that truly wants to advance the 2A cause has been welcome here.

 

[ELEMENT94]

I would agree with you if an agent of the ATF put something on official letterhead or in an affidavit etc... THEN they would not be able to say we never said that.

For clarity, I do not think the FFLs are breaking MD law, federal I still do not think they are breaking the law BUT not having the NTN (although it seems via Google fu Brady law may allow release without if the POC was contacted after 3 days; could be wrong here not a lawyer) would scare me in the face of an ATF audit. Could be explainable, but just not a risk I think I would take.

So the guys with guns paid for have dicks in the wind. As usual. Gov says we aint saying it, FFLs say we aint doing it and OMalley is laughing his ass off.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Do you possess the affidavit of those "approvals" by the ATF and MSP?

What if an FFL feels they are dealing with a shady character that realizes the process if f'd up now and is taking advantage of the situation? Still release?

Wait a minute. This can't be happening.

Something Wojo and I can actually agree on. Let me pinch myself to see if I'm dreaming.

I don't believe it would happen much, but the possiblity does exist. If the word got out to the wrong people, there could be a criminal run on the FFL's. They could even leave the STATE and be long gone.

An aweful lot of damage could be done in a 90 time frame waiting a D or an ND to come back.

 

[Wojo]

So the guys with guns paid for have dicks in the wind. As usual. Gov says we aint saying it, FFLs say we aint doing it and OMalley is laughing his ass off.

I will be interested in the initial response the the MSI lawsuit against MSP. we shall see. I think 30 days is approaching soon...

 

[ELEMENT94]

Wait a minute. This can't be happening.

Something Wojo and I can actually agree on. Let me pinch myself to see if I'm dreaming.

I don't believe it would happen much, but the possiblity does exist. If the word got out to the wrong people, there could be a criminal run on the FFL's. They could even leave the STATE and be long gone.

An aweful lot of damage could be done in a 90 time frame waiting a D or an ND to come back.

Possible but unlikely. Its a whole lot easier to buy a gun illegally or steal one, rather than going through that silly scenario.

 

[gulfwarsubvet]

Bite the hand that feeds you?????
It's going to be tough enough to keep some of the small shops going after Oct 1st, even without BS like this.
It is the state of Md. "holding our firearms hostage", NOT the FFLs.
Do you really thing they want your "paid in full" firearm taking up their valuable storage space.
Two options....wait or move.

Thats not entirely true. The law allows for release on the 8th day whether the FFL gets a ND or not. Thats why I can't quite understand the liability issue. Although I do get wanting to play it "safe".

Whats the difference between the above scenario's other than the "approval" of the MSP? Both are perfectly legal transfers. This is all assuming that the NICS check was done and all the t's were crossed.

Not trying to start an argument and like I said, I understand some shops want to play it safe and don't want to take any chances but where is the liability if all was done within the law?

Just trying to understand. Thanks

Because this is the same MSP, saying it's OK...but we don't recommend it, that.....
....wanted shops to voluntarily keep ammo logs, then when one shop did, paid a visit to a gentleman in La Plata, in the middle of the night.
He was treated like a criminal and his potential crime was buying ammo in a handgun caliber, that didn't match the regulated sale registry records, that the MSP told us was not a registry.
How many of you have bought ammo to shoot in a friends gun???
If feeding my family depended on the transfer of firearms, I would not release early.
It's not worth it, based on a half-assed promise from a group that has told us one thing, then followed a different path more than once.
The only exception would be a legal document that made it 100% clear I was not liable as a seller, should I release after 8 days and someone came back Disapproved.
I'm not trying to start an argument, but it's real easy to stand on one side of the fence and tell folks how they should live on the other.
We get enough of that from the anti-2A folks. We don't need it within our own community.

 

[AJRB]

It is no longer under debate if it is legal to release on the 8th day. Its legal, try to accept it. Now that its accepted its legal....is MSP forcing any FFL to hold? No, the FFL has chosen that path on their own, while ignoring state and fed law. That is why this thread was created....the creator of this thread should now appear as a genius to all of us. Hope that makes sense all.

 

[Wojo]

It is no longer under debate if it is legal to release on the 8th day. Its legal, try to accept it. Now that its accepted its legal....is MSP forcing any to hold? No, the FFL has chosen that path on their own, while ignoring state and fed law. That is why this thread was created....the creator of this thread should now appear as a genius to all of us. Hope that makes sense all.

No it doesn't make sense...do you know the federal law?

 

[garyad]

Because this is the same MSP, saying it's OK...but we don't recommend it, that.....
....wanted shops to voluntarily keep ammo logs, then when one shop did, paid a visit to a gentleman in La Plata, in the middle of the night.
He was treated like a criminal and his potential crime was buying ammo in a handgun caliber, that didn't match the regulated sale registry records, that the MSP told us was not a registry.
How many of you have bought ammo to shoot in a friends gun???
If feeding my family depended on the transfer of firearms, I would not release early.
It's not worth it, based on a half-assed promise from a group that has told us one thing, then followed a different path more than once.
The only exception would be a legal document that made it 100% clear I was not liable as a seller, should I release after 8 days and someone came back Disapproved.
I'm not trying to start an argument, but it's real easy to stand on one side of the fence and tell folks how they should live on the other.
We get enough of that from the anti-2A folks. We don't need it within our own community.

Let me ask you this. Do you have such a document that says you are 100% not liable for anything the buyer does with the firearm even if you get a ND for the person?

Just trying to get a handle on what kind of liability you would have acting completely within the law. I have no hard feelings against any FFL that chooses not to release just trying to understand your point of view. No argument not trying to stir the pot wanted here just asking.

 

[zoostation]

I think it's a horrible idea to even suggest.

 

[AJRB]

No it doesn't make sense...do you know the federal law?

Yep fed law is less time than our own state....if you have met the state requirements you have met the fed as well

 

[Wojo]

Yep fed law is less time than our own state....if you have met the state requirements you have met the fed as well

All that did was confirm that you do not...

 

[Wojo]

Yep fed law is less time than our own state....if you have met the state requirements you have met the fed as well

Ever been through an ATF audit?

 

[AJRB]

I 110% disagree with suing ANY FFL..... but folks....lets intelligently blame the correct party. I know people will think I'm taking sides with msp.... but now that it's clear what the law is, I am having a hard time seeing how msp is to blame at all....

 

[Wojo]

I 110% disagree with suing ANY FFL..... but folks....lets intelligently blame the correct party. I know people will think I'm taking sides with msp.... but now that it's clear what the law is, I am having a hard time seeing how msp is to blame at all....

They are the POC for NICS... HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THAT THAT IS RELEVANT?

Obtaining the NTN from MSP is what is causing the hold up.

 

[garyad]

I 110% disagree with suing ANY FFL..... but folks....lets intelligently blame the correct party. I know people will think I'm taking sides with msp.... but now that it's clear what the law is, I am having a hard time seeing how msp is to blame at all....

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[AJRB]

They are the POC for NICS... HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THAT THAT IS RELEVANT?

Obtaining the NTN from MSP is what is causing the hold up.

Your point is totally irrelevant. Can be released without it. How do you explain all these FFL'S releasing?

 

[Wojo]

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Blind leading the blind...