Sue ffls for not releasing

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    aireyc

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 14, 2013
    1,166
    Holy hell, you guys will jump down a throat if anyone appears threatening to FFLs. The responses to this thread are honestly terrifying to me. If we wish to have ANY chance of defeating the antis, we all need to take a chill pill.

    The OP's question is a very legitimate question, believe it or not. I generally judge the legitimacy of a law based on this question: If you take the law to the extreme, is it a good law or is it a bad law? It's illegal to go out and randomly kill someone. Is it a good thing or a bad thing if people follow the law and nobody kills anybody? I'd say that's a good thing. What about speed limits? Is it a good thing or a bad thing if everyone obeys the speed limit? I'd say that's a good thing. What about welfare? Is it a good thing or a bad thing if everyone collects a check from the government? I'd say that's a bad thing since it's clearly unsustainable if everyone takes out more than they put in. That just can't work. What about freedom of speech? Is it a good thing or a bad thing if everyone can speak freely? I'd say that's a good thing. What about subsidies for business? Is it a good thing or a bad thing if all businesses receive subsidies? I say that's a bad thing as it's worse than just cutting taxes.

    Now think of that idea in terms of FFLs. What if you're a mega jerk and NO FFL wishes to do business with you? Can the will of the FFLs deny you your right to acquire a gun? Can the excuse "well you can apply for your own FFL" really suffice? If no one will do business with you, please tell me how you can exercise your Second Amendment right.

    Obviously that will never happen, but when you factor in theoretically indefinite MSP delays plus all FFLs unwilling to legally release to someone (say, a new gun purchaser who has no previous NDs), you can't tell me there is no recourse. By law the FFL may release, so it's not the MSP holding them back. What do you do? Can your rights be put on hold indefinitely?

    These are valid questions, and I think that asking ALL questions as a means of identifying legal remedies for individuals is certainly acceptable. Unfortunately, some of you are such pompous a-holes, you are too simple-minded to even consider the question and immediately trash the OP.
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    I 110% disagree with suing ANY FFL..... but folks....lets intelligently blame the correct party. I know people will think I'm taking sides with msp.... but now that it's clear what the law is, I am having a hard time seeing how msp is to blame at all....

    Really??? In no particular order...

    They are POC for NICS (which we all know can be completed in <15min)
    They are processors for all paperwork
    They are bound by law to issue a ND by the 7th day
    They use an arcane and overly burdonsome process
    They are inefficient (my opinion)
    They are passive-aggressive with dealers

    Other than that??? Nah... no problem.

    So who do you think deserves the blame, and maybe someone will file a lawsuit.... oh... yeah...
     

    Wojo

    What's that Smell
    May 8, 2012
    2,488
    Wrong side of the Potomac
    Holy hell, you guys will jump down a throat if anyone appears threatening to FFLs. The responses to this thread are honestly terrifying to me. If we wish to have ANY chance of defeating the antis, we all need to take a chill pill.

    The OP's question is a very legitimate question, believe it or not. I generally judge the legitimacy of a law based on this question: If you take the law to the extreme, is it a good law or is it a bad law? It's illegal to go out and randomly kill someone. Is it a good thing or a bad thing if people follow the law and nobody kills anybody? I'd say that's a good thing. What about speed limits? Is it a good thing or a bad thing if everyone obeys the speed limit? I'd say that's a good thing. What about welfare? Is it a good thing or a bad thing if everyone collects a check from the government? I'd say that's a bad thing since it's clearly unsustainable if everyone takes out more than they put in. That just can't work. What about freedom of speech? Is it a good thing or a bad thing if everyone can speak freely? I'd say that's a good thing. What about subsidies for business? Is it a good thing or a bad thing if all businesses receive subsidies? I say that's a bad thing as it's worse than just cutting taxes.

    Now think of that idea in terms of FFLs. What if you're a mega jerk and NO FFL wishes to do business with you? Can the will of the FFLs deny you your right to acquire a gun? Can the excuse "well you can apply for your own FFL" really suffice? If no one will do business with you, please tell me how you can exercise your Second Amendment right.

    Obviously that will never happen, but when you factor in theoretically indefinite MSP delays plus all FFLs unwilling to legally release to someone (say, a new gun purchaser who has no previous NDs), you can't tell me there is no recourse. By law the FFL may release, so it's not the MSP holding them back. What do you do? Can your rights be put on hold indefinitely?

    These are valid questions, and I think that asking ALL questions as a means of identifying legal remedies for individuals is certainly acceptable. Unfortunately, some of you are such pompous a-holes, you are too simple-minded to even consider the question and immediately trash the OP.

    Oh my god, I can't take it anymore. My ignore list if filling quickly.

    You guys LOVE to say they side that benefits them most is the RIGHT SIDE
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    Mr H... You've been around here.

    Am I the only one seeing this trend here?

    I lost my sanity long ago.

    If you want to keep yours, I'd just let it slide.

    But, yes... many here (no names) strike me as particularly selfish and short-sighted, and refuse to accept answers they don't like. Anyone who is perceived to say otherwise is, by definition, an enemy.

    Research and reasoned thought?!! This is the interwebs, man!!!!

    :D

    Yeah, I think I'll change my mind and back closing this thread now.
     

    Wojo

    What's that Smell
    May 8, 2012
    2,488
    Wrong side of the Potomac
    Just think what could have gotten done if some of these guys were as enthusiastic about fighting SB281 or even voting.... Painting with a broad brush here but I think I know the type. Now that THEY can't get THEIR firearms in a week or so, THEY are all so active
     

    webb297

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 29, 2010
    2,801
    Bowie
    Be nice or leave is the saying around here right? State your opinion sir, lets leave the name callling on the playground

    Read the posts about civil liability. Read the posts about Federal Law possible violations (not just State). Read the posts about how if they release they may be audited. Now explain why you think it is a good idea to sue the FFL for trying run their business the most safe way they know how.
     

    Wojo

    What's that Smell
    May 8, 2012
    2,488
    Wrong side of the Potomac
    I lost my sanity long ago.

    If you want to keep yours, I'd just let it slide.

    But, yes... many here (no names) strike me as particularly selfish and short-sighted, and refuse to accept answers they don't like. Anyone who is perceived to say otherwise is, by definition, an enemy.

    Research and reasoned thought?!! This is the interwebs, man!!!!

    :D

    Yeah, I think I'll change my mind and back closing this thread now.

    Is there a limit to the ignore list? :)
     

    GBMaryland

    Active Member
    Feb 23, 2008
    954
    MoCo
    Ok,

    I only read the OP, but talk about biting off our noses to spite our faces...

    FFLs are our largest private supporters... this would be exactly what the extreme left would love to see.

    GB
     

    AJRB

    Ultimate Member
    May 8, 2013
    1,584
    Read the posts about civil liability. Read the posts about Federal Law possible violations (not just State). Read the posts about how if they release they may be audited. Now explain why you think it is a good idea to sue the FFL for trying run their business the most safe way they know how.

    I don't... if you read my posts I stated I 110% DISAGREE with suing ANY FFL....

    My point was only what you confirm, its up to the FFL how to run their biz in the most safe way I they know how......not up to MSP....that is all
     
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