Montgomery County data shows ongoing major challenges with police staffing, recruitment

[RFBfromDE]

A functional society can only function well with a functioning family unit.

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Hey, those look like that 50k "fixer upper" you were trying to sell!

 

[Sunrise]

Is there data showing that having a college degree makes one a 'better' cop ?

I'd defer to @spoon059 on that.

 

[spoon059]

I'd defer to @spoon059 on that.

The argument is that studies show that officers with higher levels of education use less force. There could be many reasons for that. Regardless, it'sa dramatic shift in MCPD to drop that requirement. 60 college credits has been the minimum for a long time. A couple years ago they also accepted some military experience in lieu of education... then they accepted some prior law enforcement in lieu.

Now we are dropping education altogether. I don't know what the end result will be... but the fact that MCPD has been forced to lower it's standards so many times and still struggles to fill the ranks is exceptionally troubling in my mind.

 

[MaxVO2]

Hey, those look like that 50k "fixer upper" you were trying to sell!

****Unfortunately, that beauty is not mine and is not in an area I would currently consider buying. Admittedly it is near Frank C. Bocek Park - which has those new benches, a new tree, some planters, and the caretaker/unlicensed pharmacist dude hanging out there perhaps doing the topiary, light landscaping, etc..

That listing came across my page and is not in the same neighborhood as the row houses with the kids and families washing off the steps and cleaning up. Those were working class neighborhoods with people who got their hands dirty for a living, had pride in their homes, their neighborhoods, and had functioning family units. Same general area but different architectural style to the home, and much older - perhaps 1930's or so construction vs 1950's after the war like the bigger row houses.

They owners back then cleaned up after themselves, and were very family oriented. That *same* street with the people washing the steps now is basically abandoned, which is why I included it. Quarry, and various factories shut down or moved off-shore to lower labor rate countries and many families moved to other areas where there was more work and opportunity, retired, passed on, etc..

 

[Sunrise]

The argument is that studies show that officers with higher levels of education use less force. There could be many reasons for that. Regardless, it'sa dramatic shift in MCPD to drop that requirement. 60 college credits has been the minimum for a long time. A couple years ago they also accepted some military experience in lieu of education... then they accepted some prior law enforcement in lieu.

Now we are dropping education altogether. I don't know what the end result will be... but the fact that MCPD has been forced to lower it's standards so many times and still struggles to fill the ranks is exceptionally troubling in my mind.

The slippery slope has turned into a cliff....

Maybe the next thing to get dropped will be marksmanship.

 

[MaxVO2]

The argument is that studies show that officers with higher levels of education use less force. There could be many reasons for that. Regardless, it'sa dramatic shift in MCPD to drop that requirement. 60 college credits has been the minimum for a long time. A couple years ago they also accepted some military experience in lieu of education... then they accepted some prior law enforcement in lieu.

Now we are dropping education altogether. I don't know what the end result will be... but the fact that MCPD has been forced to lower it's standards so many times and still struggles to fill the ranks is exceptionally troubling in my mind.

****Yea this. I don't see the disadvantage to having a more educated workforce at least in terms of critical thinking skills and the potential to have a better understanding of logic, concepts and perhaps even a better understanding of the judicial system and all of its parts for criminal justice majors or people with that type of formal education.

Dropping the requirement altogether just shows the desperation in filling the ranks. 30 years ago, the MCPD had a remarkably good reputation for professionalism and having exceptionally well prepared officers - now it is my understanding from people currently on the force that they are accepting people that would have never made it past the first interview, much less become a sworn officer. The quality of the average recruit being much lower than just a few years ago before the civilian population started being hostile in some segments to the police and all of the talk of defunding, and also a clearly hostile political class (Elrich, Jawando, etc..) that does not have their backs.

Law and order is one of the cornerstones of a civilized society. Without it, there are some very bad people that just become predatory and do all manner of harm - they are a minority of the population, but they do untold harm if not locked up for the benefit of society in general. Plenty of examples of criminals with multiple incidents being let off, or not serving out their terms and doing really bad things while allowed their freedom.

 

[turbo86]

I've been employed by a post secondary institution in Montgomery County for the past 32 yrs. I've seen a steady decline in the rigor of the instruction and the strict adherence to education based outcomes that once were the norm. Now the students that come through here have been turned into social justice warriors that feel entitled to essentially do what ever they want and complain if there is a consequence. The critical thinking skills that they should have been taught before they get to us is non existent. They've been preached to about how horrible it is to be an American and how humans are wrecking the planet but they can't name the three branches of our government.

The smart ones aren't going into law enforcement. I'm afraid for my kids and grandkids.

 

[RFBfromDE]

The argument is that studies show that officers with higher levels of education use less force. There could be many reasons for that. Regardless, it'sa dramatic shift in MCPD to drop that requirement. 60 college credits has been the minimum for a long time. A couple years ago they also accepted some military experience in lieu of education... then they accepted some prior law enforcement in lieu.

Now we are dropping education altogether. I don't know what the end result will be... but the fact that MCPD has been forced to lower it's standards so many times and still struggles to fill the ranks is exceptionally troubling in my mind.

Thank you for your thoughts and insight.

Isn't the predictable and desired outcome of lowered standards for LE that there will be more documented incidents of misuse of authority by lessor trained officers?

 

[turbo86]

Yes. Lowering standards whether it's education or law enforcement only benefits those who wish to tear civil institutions down.

 

[Melnic]

I now of a recruit that passed everything up until the driving then failed. He had always been a very slow and safe driver and struggled with learning more agressive driving. He did fine on all the gun stuff and physical stuff. Instead of training to pass the one thing he failed, he was told he would have to do everything over again. He was discouraged and decided NOT to come back. You can say that his heart was not in it although he was there for a Sheriff's job but I don't see the efficiency in this. What will they do eventually? Lower all of the standards?

 

[BurkeM]

Will this ever get better?

25-50 years after Apocalypse.

 

[BurkeM]

Sheriff's job but I don't see the efficiency in this. What will they do eventually? Lower all of the standards?

Training standards are set by MPTC, not the County.

 

[Sunrise]

25-50 years after Apocalypse.

I always miss the good stuff. Damn.

 

[BurkeM]

Is there data showing that having a college degree makes one a 'better' cop ?

Yes, but it's not a 100% correlation.

College used to teach analytical skills, reading comprehension and professional writing skills. (not now)

 

[BurkeM]

Isn't the predictable and desired outcome of lowered standards for LE that there will be more documented incidents of misuse of authority by lessor trained officers?

Perhaps.

The other likelihood is police who will do nothing, arrive 2 hrs after an incident and write an incoherent, incomplete report.

 

[RFBfromDE]

Yes, but it's not a 100% correlation.

College used to teach analytical skills, reading comprehension and professional writing skills. (not now)

Before PDs were "certified" and presumably less professional, a degreed beat cop was rare or on his way up to management.

At least that's the way it was when my Uncle and Grandfather were cops. (Wilmington DE)

 

[TheBert]

The slippery slope has turned into a cliff....

Maybe the next thing to get dropped will be marksmanship.

Have them switch to G18's with the 33 round mags. One of the rounds should hit something flesh.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Training standards are set by MPTC, not the County.

True . To a point .

MPTC sets the minimum statewide standards . Most of the large Departments had been making a point about Their training was XYZ longer/ better than the state required .

Decades ago lawyers and the activists of the day regularly accused the various tiny Municipal PD's of being negligent at the least , for having their Ofc trained to " only " State standards , instead of the same amount as PG Co PD .

MoCo PD's change is particularly telling , as they were one of the early adopters of Manditory college .

Even 40 yrs ago , in many Dept where it wasn't Required , it was de facto required . As it was told to me at the time , if you didn't it ranked you behind the majority of applicants , and you needed some really impressive experience to be viable of making the final rounds of cuts .

 

[Biggfoot44]

Before PDs were "certified" and presumably less professional, a degreed beat cop was rare or on his way up to management.

At least that's the way it was when my Uncle and Grandfather were cops. (Wilmington DE)

Decades of both Qualification Inflation , and across the board dropping of standards in education .

Nowadays , there is a higher % of the population with 4 yrs degrees , than the % with HS Diploma circa 1940 .

 

[spoon059]

****Yea this. I don't see the disadvantage to having a more educated workforce at least in terms of critical thinking skills and the potential to have a better understanding of logic, concepts and perhaps even a better understanding of the judicial system and all of its parts for criminal justice majors or people with that type of formal education.

I've trained some highly educated idiots over the course of my career. I remember a rookie with a Master's Degree in something or other. Very smart guy, but completely incapable of making snap decisions based upon limited data. I remember he would struggle with the dumbest thing. We'd get a call for a theft occurred earlier. We'd be driving to the call and talking about what needs to be done. Verify the crime, document what was stolen, cost, serial numbers, pictures, etc. Easy peasy call. We got there, it was actually a burglary that occurred earlier. Process is still the same... verify, document, cost, serial numbers, pictures. Only difference was a burglary required some more paperwork and potentially a notification to detectives. This guy could not handle a change from what he expected. He literally shut down and I watched him reboot himself to figure out how to handle the call.

For all intents and purposes it is the SAME CRIME as far as our reporting requirements are concerned. It should have been simple to just remember to fill out one additional form. He couldn't do it. Low stress, no major decision to make and he froze up. He's been on for about 12 years now, he's better, but it was rough early on.

Education doesn't necessarily make you a better officer.