Looking for an arrow “elmer” aka expert

[N3YMY]

So…we have what I believe to be a arrow configuration that will meet her needs.

Life started with 6 shafts being squared. Then we added nocks and spine aligned them. 3 of the 6 were fletched with the slight left lean we always use with “purpleshia” (yes, her bow has a name).

We started at 18m and bare vs fletched was far apart (with the bare group to the left). 1” was removed and the groups individually got very small; distance between groups was also smaller. We whacked another 3/4” and we had convergence.

Next we checked the paper tune as just a reference and the results were as expected.

Time for 30m!

The group sizes and distances were what we expected, so we moved right to 50m for final.

(Ie we were sure the groups would be at least on the butt!)

Based upon group 1, we whacked another 1”. At this point my archer was getting tired, hot, annoyed by bugs and generally irritable, her form was not what it typically is, but we still needed to test.

Group 2 at 50m showed convergence, perhaps a bit past (all bare shafts were slightly right of the fletched, but just barely so).

At this point we called it good and dropped back to 30m for a sanity check; bare shafts still to the left at 30”, but close to convergence.

So we now have our candidate configuration and I will fletch the remaining 3 arrows.

Beyond this point the only way to see what happens is for her to fly 2-3 groups of 6 ends and to score them.

I’m hoping we can do this tomorrow so we can put a stake in the ground and call it good.

I was really surprised at the effect tuning the shaft length had on the individual groups of the fletched and bare shaft arrows.

I can’t wait to see what happens numerically when she scores with these!

Prior configuration:

Victory VAP V1
700 spine
26 5/8” shaft
120gr point (started life as 140gr, cut down as required)
Bohning F-nock

New configuration:
Victory VAP V1
600 spine
28 1/4” shaft
100gr point
Bohning F-nock

I’m debating if I need to be a 1/4 longer, hence why I’ll wait till sights in and scores.

8 days till we leave for Ohio!

I wanted to thank all of you for the input and especially outrider.

The kitchen table style discussion we had here really helps with the debugging process

 

[N3YMY]

We’ve had a lot of things preventing us from vetting the arrows.

We are now at family property near the Allegheny National Forest. After some fiddling around, we were able to get some flight at 18m:

She reports the fly better and her groups are tighter vs the 700 spine arrows.

Tomorrow 30 and 50m are on the schedule!

 

[outrider58]

We’ve had a lot of things preventing us from vetting the arrows.

We are now at family property near the Allegheny National Forest. After some fiddling around, we were able to get some flight at 18m:

View attachment 423567

She reports the fly better and her groups are tighter vs the 700 spine arrows.

Tomorrow 30 and 50m are on the schedule!

That's a step in the right direction, no?

If I may suggest, on the inside 20-25 meters shots, make a cardboard cover for the Block target with 6-8 penny sized dots with a Sharpie. Make her shoot one arrow for each dot. Two things will be achieved; her 'groups' at longer range will tighten up and she won't destroy her arrows when shooting at close range. It's the old "aim small - miss small" thing. When I shoot in my back yard, I aim at arrow holes in my target. It builds great discipline.

 

[N3YMY]

That's a step in the right direction, no?

If I may suggest, on the inside 20-25 meters shots, make a cardboard cover for the Block target with 6-8 penny sized dots with a Sharpie. Make her shoot one arrow for each dot. Two things will be achieved; her 'groups' at longer range will tighten up and she won't destroy her arrows when shooting at close range. It's the old "aim small - miss small" thing. When I shoot in my back yard, I aim at arrow holes in my target. It builds great discipline.

I actually have target faces with us; she wanted to shoot the white circles as they are smaller than the 10 ring on our faces.

We are limited to 18m on property due to others close by and sufficient backstop.

Tomorrow we will journey to Nation Fuel’s Heath pipeline where her peak draw force is the only limit

 

[N3YMY]

So I have to apologize reporting results this late.

The lack of robust cellular data during our visit to the ANF and the “crack cocaine” offered by the area is at fault:

And:

So we finally got down to business. 18m warm up:

30m sanity check (with 18m; sorry, I failed to change the target face):



And finally 50m:

Now considering what her group looks like at 30m, at 50m her group should expand to include the 8 ring until she gets more control at 50m.

We also came to discover that she is having some trouble getting her HBC to fire consistently. We will be meeting with a teammate to work on that tomorrow afternoon.

The verdict?

Consider the issue with her ability to get the release to bend to her will, I’m going to call it good.

Her first group at 50m, when her release was “listening to her”:

(One arrow was “donated” to the pipeline right of way at sight-in)

Once again thanks to all who gave a helping hand in this issue.

I’ll report back results after the buckeye.

 

[N3YMY]

We had team practice on Wednesday and it was apparent we needed even more whacked. So I cut another 1 1/4”.

We reset elevation of the sight 8:30am the next day, returned home and departed for Dublin, OH.

We just underwent a 3 hour rain delay, but here’s the first end out of practice:

(pay no attention to unfocused nature of the image, I need a higher quality spotting scope)

That’s likely the limit of her hand at 50m; she is only 14 after all

+700 archers here for this event:

 

[outrider58]

Wow!

As long as her technique is solid, accuracy will come. Does your daughter use a kisser button? It's a great tool to help solidify her anchor point.

Best of luck to you guys!

 

[N3YMY]

As long as her technique is solid, accuracy will come.

I can see she is right on the cusp of that happening.

Does your daughter use a kisser button?

Her coaches do not permit tube peeps, drop away rests or kisser buttons.

Best of luck to you guys!

Thanks! With the wind, we needed it!

Event results are here.

It was hot and surprisingly windy compared to venues where she typically competes. For qualifications she turned in a 606 (301/305). This was with 4 non scorable arrows due to wind and a X she managed in an adjacent target (easy to do with one of these; the small scope allows lower draw force archers to compete outdoors by keeping the scope out of the arrow’s travel path, but she no longer has that concern)

She has been turning in 660s at 30m though.

She made the cut for the elimination brackets and was eliminated in the 1/32 bracket.

For her, some of the shoot was quite intimidating. Especially when archers like Leann Drake are on the butt with you, let alone the fact you are shooting with people who are mostly 2-3 years older.

To say the least, I am extremely proud of her results considering the issues of getting to this point (arrows) and only having about 12-16 practices at 50m, some of which were experimental archery to assist me in making her new arrows.

Now it’s time for the 7 hour drive back…

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Sorry, I understand. It may be easier to read and understand in context.

Every arrow manufacturer has their own spine chart, so you should always refer to them.
They usually go by arrow length + draw weight = arrow spine formula.

I am clueless, can you or the other guys explain Spine, and other factors that might affect accuracy.

Things I saw mentioned like fall away rests or any other kind, etc.
BTW, I hunt using a pretty darn old PSE Fireflite Elite Graphite and basic old school aluminum Easton arrows and Thunderhead broadheads.

I am considering "upgrading" to a more modern PSE, Matthews etc type bow from this century.
An acquaintance in Indiana just got a pretty cool looking Matthews and is outfitting it with the required accessories. I bet it likely cost him more than I spend on cars or other basic equipment needs.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Wow!

As long as her technique is solid, accuracy will come. Does your daughter use a kisser button? It's a great tool to help solidify her anchor point.

Best of luck to you guys!

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

I can see she is right on the cusp of that happening.



Her coaches do not permit tube peeps, drop away rests or kisser buttons.



Thanks! With the wind, we needed it!

Event results are here.

It was hot and surprisingly windy compared to venues where she typically competes. For qualifications she turned in a 606 (301/305). This was with 4 non scorable arrows due to wind and a X she managed in an adjacent target (easy to do with one of these; the small scope allows lower draw force archers to compete outdoors by keeping the scope out of the arrow’s travel path, but she no longer has that concern)

She has been turning in 660s at 30m though.

She made the cut for the elimination brackets and was eliminated in the 1/32 bracket.

For her, some of the shoot was quite intimidating. Especially when archers like Leann Drake are on the butt with you, let alone the fact you are shooting with people who are mostly 2-3 years older.

To say the least, I am extremely proud of her results considering the issues of getting to this point (arrows) and only having about 12-16 practices at 50m, some of which were experimental archery to assist me in making her new arrows.

Now it’s time for the 7 hour drive back…

Brother, I am incredibly proud of you as a dad and for daughter as she pursues archery and achieving her best.

I know some may think of this as simplistic, but think about it. If the parents of the gang bangers, thugs, and other young people on the verge of arrest, jail, drug use, shooting deaths or killing to show machismo, would or can invest a part of their lives alongside their kids in pursuits such as archery, hunting a fishing, bicycling, crochet, etc, Then, wholesome habits and avenues such as these can be passed down and the rewards of doing them can then be passed down for future generations.

Yes, there are hurdles to the poor families, but it is not an excuse if one takes into consideration some of the poorest in our land can still do these things. Just look at the hillbillies of Appalachia and you will find rich multi-generational pursuits. Hunting etc, music, and moonshine to name a few.

 

[N3YMY]

I am clueless, can you or the other guys explain Spine, and other factors that might affect accuracy.

I will do my best, but this will be a long post and be aware there are multiple competing thoughts on arrow tuning for best flight and ultimately grouping.

This discussion assume you are building your own arrows.

Spine is both a place and a value. Both affect flight.

The (static) spine value, measured in thousandths of an inch, is how much an arrow will bend under “test conditions”.

I say “test conditions” because there are a couple of different test conditions for measuring static spine depending on the arrows you are testing.

In her specific case, the arrow shaft is suspended at two points, 28” apart and a 2 pound weight is applied. Half way between the suspension points, the amount of deflection is measured in thousandths of an inch. The larger the number, the “weaker” the spine (ie the arrow flexes more). The smaller the number, the stiffer the spine (ie flexes less).

Now that said, too much or too little spine and an arrow will not necessarily fly correctly (ie see archer’s paradox).

Ie contrary to popular belief, arrows do not fly in a straight line to their destination. They undergo a sinusoidal movement as they fly to their target. Without the correct amount of this movement, flight does not stabilize or stay stabilized and results will vary.

As a shaft is trimmed below “test conditions”, spine is said to be stiffer than the marked spine for flight purposes.

Ie it is possible to get better flight from a given arrow based upon length for empirically vs the “shaft need only be +1” beyond the rest” method employed by many bow shops.

There are reference tables using peak draw force and draw length to give suggested spine values for reasonable flight. One should use that as a beginning for what arrows to purchase.

For spine, “the place”, imagine the diameter of the arrow shaft.

This is the place where the most bending moment occurs above; easily discernible with a dial indicator or placing a shaft with two points installed in a bow press (method I currently use).

With the arrow deflecting towards the floor, the point on the shaft perpendicular to the floor and facing the sky is the spine point.

Now extend this point down the length of the shaft and you have the spine as a line down the length of the shaft.

There a multiple thoughts on arrow tuning. Two of these have to do with nock alignment: nock tuning and spine indexing.

I subscribe to the spine indexing “house of worship”.

This means I need to find the spine location of each shaft. I will align the nock to the spine line and I will also align my fletching to the spine as well.

Now static spine is a tuning reference and is not what happens in flight.

What happens during flight is “dynamic spine”. At this time, I am unaware of any techniques to quantify dynamic spine. There are methods to capture the flight path of the arrow, but for me, static measures of spine is an approximation we use of dynamic spine which directly impacts arrow flight quality. Point weight, shaft length and peak draw force have the smallest to largest effect upon dynamic spine.

(hence the problem we had that inspired this thread)

By knowing its location, value and applying some rules, we hope to make some educated guesses about arrow flight to produce the best arrows.

The ultimate test is how those arrows fly and group for our specific application.

Things I saw mentioned like fall away rests or any other kind, etc.

All bows have a “rest”; this supports the arrow in connection with the nocking point. The longer the arrow is in contact with the rest the more important follow through becomes.

However how important is that vs mechanical failure of a rest with moving parts during a shot? Didn’t get your X or missed your deer?

Each archer must make that choice for themselves.

PM me for more detail; there’s a lot I have not covered here for brevity (I know! Hard to believe!)

 

[N3YMY]

BTW, I hunt using a pretty darn old PSE Fireflite Elite Graphite and basic old school aluminum Easton arrows and Thunderhead broadheads.

The techniques I discussed works on both old and new bows.

I am considering "upgrading" to a more modern PSE, Matthews etc type bow from this century.
An acquaintance in Indiana just got a pretty cool looking Matthews and is outfitting it with the required accessories. I bet it likely cost him more than I spend on cars or other basic equipment needs.

Old is fine, but I do have to admit, longer ATA distances are known to cover up archer mistakes (ie forgiveness), but it is often a trade off between accuracy and the ability to carry, manage and fire a larger bow while in the hide.

Once again, a choice each archer must make for themselves.

Newer bows have the ability to change draw length and let off without a bow press.

For most readers here, not values they are likely to play with or change.

The developing archer in their teens, being able to make changes to an existing bow sure beats having to buy a new bow or cam set…

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

The techniques I discussed works on both old and new bows.



Old is fine, but I do have to admit, longer ATA distances are known to cover up archer mistakes (ie forgiveness), but it is often a trade off between accuracy and the ability to carry, manage and fire a larger bow while in the hide.

Once again, a choice each archer must make for themselves.

Newer bows have the ability to change draw length and let off without a bow press.

For most readers here, not values they are likely to play with or change.

The developing archer in their teens, being able to make changes to an existing bow sure beats having to buy a new bow or cam set…

That last statement carries a lot of weight.

What is an ATA distance? AND YUP, I know that Techniques/Good habits vs learning or unlearning bad ones, can really mean the difference.

Also, what is a tube peep?

I will do my best, but this will be a long post and be aware there are multiple competing thoughts on arrow tuning for best flight and ultimately grouping.

This discussion assume you are building your own arrows.

Spine is both a place and a value. Both affect flight.

The (static) spine value, measured in thousandths of an inch, is how much an arrow will bend under “test conditions”.

I say “test conditions” because there are a couple of different test conditions for measuring static spine depending on the arrows you are testing.

In her specific case, the arrow shaft is suspended at two points, 28” apart and a 2 pound weight is applied. Half way between the suspension points, the amount of deflection is measured in thousandths of an inch. The larger the number, the “weaker” the spine (ie the arrow flexes more). The smaller the number, the stiffer the spine (ie flexes less).

Now that said, too much or too little spine and an arrow will not necessarily fly correctly (ie see archer’s paradox).

Ie contrary to popular belief, arrows do not fly in a straight line to their destination. They undergo a sinusoidal movement as they fly to their target. Without the correct amount of this movement, flight does not stabilize or stay stabilized and results will vary.

As a shaft is trimmed below “test conditions”, spine is said to be stiffer than the marked spine for flight purposes.

Ie it is possible to get better flight from a given arrow based upon length for empirically vs the “shaft need only be +1” beyond the rest” method employed by many bow shops.

There are reference tables using peak draw force and draw length to give suggested spine values for reasonable flight. One should use that as a beginning for what arrows to purchase.

For spine, “the place”, imagine the diameter of the arrow shaft.

This is the place where the most bending moment occurs above; easily discernible with a dial indicator or placing a shaft with two points installed in a bow press (method I currently use).

With the arrow deflecting towards the floor, the point on the shaft perpendicular to the floor and facing the sky is the spine point.

Now extend this point down the length of the shaft and you have the spine as a line down the length of the shaft.

There a multiple thoughts on arrow tuning. Two of these have to do with nock alignment: nock tuning and spine indexing.

I subscribe to the spine indexing “house of worship”.

This means I need to find the spine location of each shaft. I will align the nock to the spine line and I will also align my fletching to the spine as well.

Now static spine is a tuning reference and is not what happens in flight.

What happens during flight is “dynamic spine”. At this time, I am unaware of any techniques to quantify dynamic spine. There are methods to capture the flight path of the arrow, but for me, static measures of spine is an approximation we use of dynamic spine which directly impacts arrow flight quality. Point weight, shaft length and peak draw force have the smallest to largest effect upon dynamic spine.

(hence the problem we had that inspired this thread)

By knowing its location, value and applying some rules, we hope to make some educated guesses about arrow flight to produce the best arrows.

The ultimate test is how those arrows fly and group for our specific application.



All bows have a “rest”; this supports the arrow in connection with the nocking point. The longer the arrow is in contact with the rest the more important follow through becomes.

However how important is that vs mechanical failure of a rest with moving parts during a shot? Didn’t get your X or missed your deer?

Each archer must make that choice for themselves.

PM me for more detail; there’s a lot I have not covered here for brevity (I know! Hard to believe!)

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

I will PM you as I digest it and get time. Off to Towson to see my dad in the rehab home.

 

[outrider58]

I can see she is right on the cusp of that happening.



Her coaches do not permit tube peeps, drop away rests or kisser buttons.



Thanks! With the wind, we needed it!

Event results are here.

It was hot and surprisingly windy compared to venues where she typically competes. For qualifications she turned in a 606 (301/305). This was with 4 non scorable arrows due to wind and a X she managed in an adjacent target (easy to do with one of these; the small scope allows lower draw force archers to compete outdoors by keeping the scope out of the arrow’s travel path, but she no longer has that concern)

She has been turning in 660s at 30m though.

She made the cut for the elimination brackets and was eliminated in the 1/32 bracket.

For her, some of the shoot was quite intimidating. Especially when archers like Leann Drake are on the butt with you, let alone the fact you are shooting with people who are mostly 2-3 years older.

To say the least, I am extremely proud of her results considering the issues of getting to this point (arrows) and only having about 12-16 practices at 50m, some of which were experimental archery to assist me in making her new arrows.

Now it’s time for the 7 hour drive back…

I see. That was what I was afraid of. I'm not competition driven, but I did suspect there would be equipment limitations, in that regard.

Your daughter is doing fine. You have every reason to be proud of her progress. The advantage of shooting in the presence of such accomplished archers gives her a taste of what can be accomplished as well as provide impetus to achieve and prevail.

Keep up the good work dad!

 

[outrider58]

That last statement carries a lot of weight.

What is an ATA distance? AND YUP, I know that Techniques/Good habits vs learning or unlearning bad ones, can really mean the difference.

Also, what is a tube peep?

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

I will PM you as I digest it and get time. Off to Towson to see my dad in the rehab home.

ATA= Axle to axle distance between the cams on compound bows.

Peep sights attach to the bow string and act as a rear sight, just as on a gun, they allow the shooter to shoot on a constant and repeatable plain. A peep 'tube' is a rubber hose that attaches between the peep sight and either the upper limb or cable of the bow. It stretches taut as the bow is drawn and prevents the peep sight from rotating(bow strings are made of individual strands, twisted together.

Arrow spine:
Most circular rods and tubes have a strong point that generally runs the length of the shaft. Arrows, fishing rods, etc.
Through the process of shooting an arrow, the shaft bends or flexes(see archer's paradox), favoring the spine. It is normally desirable to have the spine of every arrow in your quiver to be 'clocked' the same so that each arrow flexes and flies in a similar path.

 

[N3YMY]

That last statement carries a lot of weight.

What is an ATA distance?

Axle To Axle. The distances between the axles your cams ride on. Longer ATA values tend to cover up archer mistakes.

Also, what is a tube peep?

Tube peep

vs

Traditional peep

Basically tube peeps have a piece of stretch tubing that is connected to the control cables of a compound bow. This tubing ensures the peep is properly oriented at full draw. If you need a different aperture you must change it. If you need a clarifier for your sight system, you are SoL.

Traditional peeps are simply placed in the draw string; their placement controls when they will face the archer. They are susceptible to subtle changes in cam timing and and draw force changes, which can make them be at oblique angles at full draw and not as useful if not addressed by a competent bow tech.

Why use traditional over the other?

The biggest reason is if you need a clarifier. The next biggest is they tend to be more “durable”; their materials tend to not dry out and therefore are more stable, especially if grandpa’s bow is found 10, 20 years after his passing

With traditional peeps, you can actually get housings that allow for ease of change for either the aperture, the clarifier or both.

What is a clarifier? It is an optic component to help “clean up” elements of the sight picture. Not everyone needs them nor uses them.

Typically the older we get, the less our eyes can adjust and the more likely we will need a clarifier.

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

No problem; share and enjoy!

I will PM you as I digest it and get time. Off to Towson to see my dad in the rehab home.

Here’s to good outcomes for your father. I’ve been pretty lucky with mine so far, he’s still getting around and he’s 88…

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Axle To Axle. The distances between the axles your cams ride on. Longer ATA values tend to cover up archer mistakes.



Tube peep

vs

Traditional peep

Basically tube peeps have a piece of stretch tubing that is connected to the control cables of a compound bow. This tubing ensures the peep is properly oriented at full draw. If you need a different aperture you must change it. If you need a clarifier for your sight system, you are SoL.

Traditional peeps are simply placed in the draw string; their placement controls when they will face the archer. They are susceptible to subtle changes in cam timing and and draw force changes, which can make them be at oblique angles at full draw and not as useful if not addressed by a competent bow tech.

Why use traditional over the other?

The biggest reason is if you need a clarifier. The next biggest is they tend to be more “durable”; their materials tend to not dry out and therefore are more stable, especially if grandpa’s bow is found 10, 20 years after his passing

With traditional peeps, you can actually get housings that allow for ease of change for either the aperture, the clarifier or both.

What is a clarifier? It is an optic component to help “clean up” elements of the sight picture. Not everyone needs them nor uses them.

Typically the older we get, the less our eyes can adjust and the more likely we will need a clarifier.



No problem; share and enjoy!



Here’s to good outcomes for your father. I’ve been pretty lucky with mine so far, he’s still getting around and he’s 88…

Thanks for all that info and well wishes for Dad. Same to yours and the family.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

ATA= Axle to axle distance between the cams on compound bows.

Peep sights attach to the bow string and act as a rear sight, just as on a gun, they allow the shooter to shoot on a constant and repeatable plain. A peep 'tube' is a rubber hose that attaches between the peep sight and either the upper limb or cable of the bow. It stretches taut as the bow is drawn and prevents the peep sight from rotating(bow strings are made of individual strands, twisted together.

View attachment 424686

Arrow spine:
Most circular rods and tubes have a strong point that generally runs the length of the shaft. Arrows, fishing rods, etc.
Through the process of shooting an arrow, the shaft bends or flexes(see archer's paradox), favoring the spine. It is normally desirable to have the spine of every arrow in your quiver to be 'clocked' the same so that each arrow flexes and flies in a similar path.

Thanks again and also good visual.

I have the old school peep that's like a little circle inserted in the strands. I have been very happy with mine. I also used to have a different rest than I do now. I switched to a whisker biscuit when a pack of doe's strutted toward my ladder stand and just as I was going to draw, the arrow fell off the fall away rest and scared them off as it plinked and tinked off the ladder on the way to the dirt.

No more of that BS. In the woods, bullseyes aren't my objective.

 

[Doco Overboard]

Brother, I am incredibly proud of you as a dad and for daughter as she pursues archery and achieving her best.

I know some may think of this as simplistic, but think about it. If the parents of the gang bangers, thugs, and other young people on the verge of arrest, jail, drug use, shooting deaths or killing to show machismo, would or can invest a part of their lives alongside their kids in pursuits such as archery, hunting a fishing, bicycling, crochet, etc, Then, wholesome habits and avenues such as these can be passed down and the rewards of doing them can then be passed down for future generations.

Yes, there are hurdles to the poor families, but it is not an excuse if one takes into consideration some of the poorest in our land can still do these things. Just look at the hillbillies of Appalachia and you will find rich multi-generational pursuits. Hunting etc, music, and moonshine to name a few.

Not simplistic at all.
Teach your kids how to hunt, fish, trap and shoot a bow.
And you wont have to hunt for them.