Looking for an arrow “elmer” aka expert

[N3YMY]

My daughter will be having her first competition at 50m at the end of the month.

We have recently come to understand that while her arrows perform at 30m like no one’s business, only 4 of her arrows perform at a similar level at 50m.

She has been shooting these outdoor arrows with great success for years. She earned her gold six star pin 60 days ago and missed earning her bronze Olympian pin by 6 points.

The end of the month is coming quick and I am out of ideas of what to do.

Hence the call for an arrow elmer…

 

[Inigoes]

Assuming her arrows are numbered:

What are the markings on the good arrows?
Is the fletching identical?
Are the arrows all from the same manufacturer?

If her arrows are not numbered, number them to find the above info.

 

[outrider58]

What is the shaft material?

Are the nocks glued onto the shafts?

Was the spine known on each shaft?

This is where you need to start...

 

[AlBeight]

It would also help to know what you mean by not performing at a “similar level”. Group sizes? Too much drop from point of aim? Are they planing off target? The lost velocity over that last 20 meters will definitely affect the arrows as far as stability and accuracy goes.

 

[Inigoes]

Are the arrow points the same weight?
Same type of target points?
No apparent damage?

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Shoot member Sticky a PM.

He knows a thing or 2 or 100 about Archery

 

[wilcam47]

Whats the draw weight?

 

[Doco Overboard]

My daughter will be having her first competition at 50m at the end of the month.

We have recently come to understand that while her arrows perform at 30m like no one’s business, only 4 of her arrows perform at a similar level at 50m.

She has been shooting these outdoor arrows with great success for years. She earned her gold six star pin 60 days ago and missed earning her bronze Olympian pin by 6 points.

The end of the month is coming quick and I am out of ideas of what to do.

Hence the call for an arrow elmer…

Get more arrows and sort them out for which ones work best to have enough first.
Strip all the fletching off them and shoot them through paper then examine the tear to determine what the cause may be. At 30 meters.
Then re- fletch the ones that perform the best carefully indexing them then do a re-check using paper at the determined distance.
Note any inconsistencies. You could have a few that the spine has weakened maybe down one side or even radially at differing lengths of the shaft that do not perform as well.
Repeated target impact will do this with C/F and Aluminum arrows.
Probably even the modern ones with metal infused in the carbon could exhibit the same qualities.

 

[N3YMY]

Critical Data, arrow:

Victory Archery
VAP V1 shaft (carbon shaft, spine marked at the factory, 0.001" runout)
Victory X-small points 140gr (shaved to ~120gr, see below)
shaft length 26 5/8"
Bohning F-nock 0.166
AAE Pro MAX vanes
Finished weight 294.5gr +-0.2gr

Bow:

Elite Rezult 38" ATA
Peak draw force 41.7lbs
Draw length 27.5"
IBO Speed 300 FPS

Target:

TA 6x80C at both 30 and 50 meters.

Arrow are numbered; this is how we discovered the issue. Arrows were built in 2021. Fletching is placed with a Blitzenburger (3 fletch; straight jig). Fletch is slightly angled (1-2 degrees) to encourage the CCW spin a bare shaft does from her bow. Nock and index fletch are spine aligned. Nocks are not glued; they are an extremely tight friction fit. Points are cut down at the back to match weight with other arrows. All arrow points are the same until they are cut down. All finished arrow are within +- 0.2gr of each other.

She has only shot 50m 5-6 times prior, all with super good results (ie 9 and higher).

Her personal goal this year has been to "shoot nothing but yellow"; and she has done that at 30m handily. However, the Buckeye Classic does not have a U15 class, so she must shoot in U17 at 50m. When we began to prepare for this shoot, she was shooting mostly yellow, with the occasional 8. Those 8s where often 1/2-1 arrow diameter from breaking the 9 line. Not bad for 2/3 longer distance. I couldn't do it.

All arrows behave and the goal achieved at 30m (ie 9 or better).

The "behavior" is that at 50m, with the 4 arrows identified as good, 9 or better is always achieved. The other 8 arrows always score 5 or 6 using the same shooting sequence.

She can shoot a mix of arrows and I can tell just by watching in the spotting scope which are from the known good arrow group. When tracking arrows to holes, a given bad arrow is always the same distance from the center, at different locations "around the clock". ie if arrow #17 scores a 5, it is always a 5, but at perhaps 11 oclock and 2 around the circumference of the target.

I found out just 15 minutes ago, that her coaches increased her draw length by 1" at the last practice. This "behavior" appeared after that. On her bow this is the difference between 290 FPS and 300 FPS according to manufacture data (2020 Elite technical manual, page 5). Using old vs new data shows she now needs a 600 spine instead of a 700. Perhaps a trip to LAS is called for.

Is this the source of the sudden change in behavior?

 

[N3YMY]

Get more arrows and sort them out for which ones work best to have enough first.
Strip all the fletching off them and shoot them through paper then examine the tear to determine what the cause may be. At 30 meters.
Then re- fletch the ones that perform the best carefully indexing them then do a re-check using paper at the determined distance.

Sadly, I don't have time to do this; but I wish I did!

We travel Friday, home Wednesday and leave next Thursday for the shoot.

If I don't have this solved by next Tuesday, it will be what it is.

Note any inconsistencies. You could have a few that the spine has weakened maybe down one side or even radially at differing lengths of the shaft that do not perform as well.

This whole event, make me know I need a spine testing machine for that very case. However, $$$ is limited and so is storage space for such large items (like the arrow saw )

Repeated target impact will do this with C/F and Aluminum arrows.
Probably even the modern ones with metal infused in the carbon could exhibit the same qualities.

This is new information for me; Thanks!

 

[N3YMY]

Shoot member Sticky a PM.

He knows a thing or 2 or 100 about Archery

PM sent.

Tnx!

 

[wilcam47]

Critical Data, arrow:

Victory Archery
VAP V1 shaft (carbon shaft, spine marked at the factory, 0.001" runout)
Victory X-small points 140gr (shaved to ~120gr, see below)
shaft length 26 5/8"
Bohning F-nock 0.166
AAE Pro MAX vanes
Finished weight 294.5gr +-0.2gr

Bow:

Elite Rezult 38" ATA
Peak draw force 41.7lbs
Draw length 27.5"
IBO Speed 300 FPS

Target:

TA 6x80C at both 30 and 50 meters.

Arrow are numbered; this is how we discovered the issue. Arrows were built in 2021. Fletching is placed with a Blitzenburger jig. Fletch is slightly angled (1-2 degrees) to encourage the CCW spin a bare shaft does from her bow. Nock and index fletch are spine aligned. Nocks are not glued; they are an extremely tight friction fit. Points are cut down at the back to match weight with other arrows. All arrow points are the same until they are cut down. All finished arrow are within +- 0.2gr of each other.

She has only shot 50m 5-6 times prior, all with super good results (ie 9 and higher).

Her personal goal this year has been to "shoot nothing but yellow"; and she has done that at 30m handily. However, the Buckeye Classic does not have a U15 class, so she must shoot in U17 at 50m. When we began to prepare for this shoot, she was shooting mostly yellow, with the occasional 8. Those 8s where often 1/2-1 arrow diameter from breaking the 9 line. Not bad for 2/3 longer distance. I couldn't do it.

All arrows behave and the goal achieved at 30m (ie 9 or better).

The "behavior" is that at 50m, with the 4 arrows identified as good, 9 or better is always achieved. The other 8 arrows always score 5 or 6 using the same shooting sequence.

She can shoot a mix of arrows and I can tell just by watching in the spotting scope which are from the known good arrow group. When tracking arrows to holes, a given bad arrow is always the same distance from the center, at different locations "around the clock". ie if arrow #17 scores a 5, it is always a 5, but at perhaps 11 oclock and 2 around the circumference of the target.

I found out just 15 minutes ago, that her coaches increased her draw length by 1" at the last practice. This "behavior" appeared after that. On her bow this is the difference between 290 FPS and 300 FPS according to manufacture data (2020 Elite technical manual, page 5). Using old vs new data shows she now needs a 600 spine instead of a 700. Perhaps a trip to LAS is called for.

Is this the source of the sudden change in behavior?

Has she tried different brand of arrows? Increasing her draw length could be more harm than good. If its to her proper length then its ok, but to increase it out of her draw zone is bad.

 

[N3YMY]

Has she tried different brand of arrows?

We've always used the VAP V1 for outdoors; they were built for her by a long time club member. They have always performed well, until now

Increasing her draw length could be more harm than good. If its to her proper length then its ok, but to increase it out of her draw zone is bad.

She had to spend time on the wall after COVID; because while we continued to shoot, her team did not always meet due to the protocols of FCPS, so no coach review. In that case, they had added 2" to her draw length and it took about a month of drills drawing with her against the wall to get her form back.

She's growing like a weed these days (age 14), so not surprising her arms are as well...

 

[outrider58]

OK, what kind of rest? If it is a fall away rest and assuming the nocks are rotatable, what you need to do is take the questionable arrows and rotate each arrow's nock approximately one hour in one direction and shoot them and see if their accuracy improves. Keep rotating and shooting until the arrow hits where it is aimed. If an arrow makes it all the way back to the starting point(you should mark the starting point) on the nock and you see no improvement, replace the arrow. You should do this with any arrow that 'flies' off target.

 

[Inigoes]

Is this the source of the sudden change in behavior?

That may be the 2 variables. The new draw length and new anchor point. Assuming the child is growing, increasing the draw length would be natural to get back to her natural anchor point.

To determine you can follow 1 of 2 paths:
1) reduce the draw length and see the behavior at 50m
2) spend money and buy a new set arrows to match the new draw length.

 

[N3YMY]

OK, what kind of rest?

Bright Site’s Pro Tuner rest

If it is a fall away rest and assuming the nocks are rotatable, what you need to do is take the questionable arrows and rotate each arrow's nock approximately one hour in one direction and shoot them and see if their accuracy improves. Keep rotating and shooting until the arrow hits where it is aimed. If an arrow makes it all the way back to the starting point(you should mark the starting point) on the nock and you see no improvement, replace the arrow. You should do this with any arrow that 'flies' off target.

From my understanding, this technique is usually used to find the spine, via flight, when it is unknown.

Spine is already unknown and nocks aligned as such.

 

[N3YMY]

That may be the 2 variables. The new draw length and new anchor point. Assuming the child is growing, increasing the draw length would be natural to get back to her natural anchor point.

To determine you can follow 1 of 2 paths:
1) reduce the draw length and see the behavior at 50m

The coaches decided to change her draw length, therefore it makes no sense to go back for me.

2) spend money and buy a new set arrows to match the new draw length.

I will do this; she was getting close to jumping to the next spine, so be it.

I just wish we had begun preparing for this shoot early last month. Then I would not be running around with my hair on fire and having to harass the brain collective.

I’ll be heading to LAS today after lunch.

We are scheduled to practice Tuesday; I’ll report back what shakes out…

 

[outrider58]

Bright Site’s Pro Tuner rest



From my understanding, this technique is usually used to find the spine, via flight, when it is unknown.

Spine is already unknown and nocks aligned as such.

No, it is not. It is to fine tune each arrow. Like paper tuning arrows and Lead Slead proofing a rifle scope, they are all penultimate steps. You still need to shoot that rifle off YOUR shoulder for final zero and you need to find the sweet spot on every arrow.

However, with that rest, nock rotation will not work as it is not a fall-away rest.

 

[N3YMY]

No, it is not. It is to fine tune each arrow. Like paper tuning arrows and Lead Slead proofing a rifle scope, they are all penultimate steps. You still need to shoot that rifle off YOUR shoulder for final zero and you need to find the sweet spot on every arrow.

Thanks for correcting that info; didn’t know it had wrong

However, with that rest, nock rotation will not work as it is not a fall-away rest.

The whole team uses pro tuner or freak show rests.

When someone joins the team with a drop away, it always seems to “blow up”.

There’s nothing quite as watching a new archer have a good shoot only to be overcome by equipment failure and realize: 1) they are helpless and cannot fix it; 2) suddenly understand why coaches recommend certain equipment or configurations.

We had this happen at indoor nationals at Harrisonburg, VA for a new archer.

He was having a really good showing for first time at that event too. I felt for him

 

[outrider58]

Thanks for correcting that info; didn’t know it had wrong



The whole team uses pro tuner or freak show rests.

When someone joins the team with a drop away, it always seems to “blow up”.

There’s nothing quite as watching a new archer have a good shoot only to be overcome by equipment failure and realize: 1) they are helpless and cannot fix it; 2) suddenly understand why coaches recommend certain equipment or configurations.

We had this happen at indoor nationals at Harrisonburg, VA for a new archer.

He was having a really good showing for first time at that event too. I felt for him

Never heard of a problem with them "blowing up". I've warn one out with no failures. I went with a more modern(read tunable) whale tail type and absolutely love them. They DO need to be installed correctly and timing is critical.

I have never liked launcher type rests. I stuck with flipper/berger button combinations and later bearing roller rests, then finally fall away. You have to spend smart money on them though. You cannot scrimp and I prefer cable driven way over limb driven. I connect to the bus cable using serving thread rather than supplied micky-mouse connectors.

I'll say this, never change a set-up in the middle of a season. Make moves like that during the off season for obvious reasons.

You might try replacing the errant arrows with new ones of the same make and hope for improvement.

Good luck!