How would the MSP prove you didn't possess the AW upper before Oct 1? You were legal because you had the lower before Oct 1. The upper has no serial number, so how could they know?
Engage Armament Gen "Deux" Lowers
- Thread starter Engage Armament
- Start date
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I 100% agree with the logic you are implying. However you may be comitting a crime and you would know it. An unconstitutional crime I might add, but possibly a crime none the less according to MOM.
Again, let's say I get my lower next week and 2 weeks later I buy a 5.56 upper from Midway but the original MSP paperwork on the lower said OTHER. Has a crime been committed? Perhaps if I don't do another 77. If not, how would MSP prove otherwise? Again, if they can't prove it, was it a crime committed? That's what the courts decide.
Who knows.
ETA-if you lend me a 5.56 upper before Oct 1, and I take a date stamped photo of it and after Oct 1 I give it back to you, is that legal? You didn't lend me a firearm, just the upper. Would I do another 77 to MSP showing it's a 5.56 made before Oct 1?
Lots of questions. My thread jack is over. sorry Andy.
Who knows.
ETA-if you lend me a 5.56 upper before Oct 1, and I take a date stamped photo of it and after Oct 1 I give it back to you, is that legal? You didn't lend me a firearm, just the upper. Would I do another 77 to MSP showing it's a 5.56 made before Oct 1?
Lots of questions. My thread jack is over. sorry Andy.
Klunatic
Ultimate Member
This is one of the many problems with the way the law was written. No one can prove they owned an "assault" weapon as described in this stupid law. You are trying to argue that an undefinable type of weapon you own now is one that will be banned after the law goes into effect Oct 1.
I don't think the state will get far if they ever try to prosecute someone under this statute. Hopefully, it will go down in flames in the courts.
Secondisours
Member
- Feb 6, 2013
- 51
Any update on the first batch of lowers?
Nope. Not gonna say it. Wouldn't be prudent.
Jstevens56
Ultimate Member
Why don't you wait patiently? When the time arrives I'm sure they will let everyone know.
stu929
M1 Addict
I pre ordered two of the lowers in the may batch and only need one. If someome needs one but doesnt want to worry about the newest waiting list let me know as these should become available soon.
garym
Damn Right, Rebel Proud
Tman68
Active Member
Because most of us paid for it in February and were told it would be in the first week of May, one month later than the quoted date we have no ETA, no clue what batch we will get, and the wait for MSP is hitting 100 days now, maybe he releases in 8 days, maybe not, maybe I can build it before oct 1, maybe not. I just want mine by October 1st, if its built before that there is no questions. Going on 2 months of its anodizing, if its two more months I want to go shop elsewhere and get my money back....
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Wojo
What's that Smell
I'll take your lower off your hands. I'll pay the $125 remaining after your NONREFUNDABLE deposit to help you out so you can start your shopping elsewhere. Maybe pickup a neat polymer lower!
Tman68
Active Member
I'll take your lower off your hands. I'll pay the $125 remaining after your NONREFUNDABLE deposit to help you out so you can start your shopping elsewhere. Maybe pickup a neat polymer lower!
Just looking for a answer, that's all. I can put the deposits towards something else he sells, or get it back, I am sure when you quote a timeframe and miss it by months at this rate he will work with people, not saying its his fault, stuff happens, just wondering when some sort of information will come through... Thanks for your offer...
This is the first batch, will it go to his regular customers first and his builds? I was there the first week and did not get quoted a number in line so if I am the 2nd or 3rd batch and I'm months out of his quote then I have to do something else. I don't think I'm being unreasonable.
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Wojo
What's that Smell
In the current climate I am not holding the estimates any FFLs make on when things arrive to close to heart. They are all doing the best they can and the entire industry is just starting to settle down a bit.
For what is worth I have 2 Engage Gen 1 lowers and they are awesome. I only really use 3 shops, Engage is one of them and it takes me about 2hrs to get there. The service and advice you can get there are hard to beat. I'll keep patronizing them until they open up ReEngage in Southern MD.
Tman68
Active Member
I agree I drove Over a hour to put a deposit on 2 also, it's not like he is ordering something from a supplier, he is using machine shops to build his own, I am sure engage knows what's going on with the lowers and who is getting what batch after a few months.
Until a month ago we never heard about batches, who knows where I am in line, and if I will even get mine by October 1st.
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Please PM me your info and I will take you off our list and refund your deposit. Thanks for your understanding and patience.
Engage! Good ppl here! Takes me an hour to get there but it is well worth it to make the trip. Thanks for being there for your customers!
I think this waiting game is getting on ppl's nerves but I think it's their loss if they stopped dealing with such a nice shop as yours.
Carlfer
Active Member
Oops. Double post
Carlfer
Active Member
Here's an idea...why not just call the shop directly if you have a question about the lowers? You'll get a better answer than on a public forum.
I think the answers for the delays have been explained multiple times on this thread.
IANAL
YMMV
LOL
TTYL
I think the answers for the delays have been explained multiple times on this thread.
IANAL
YMMV
LOL
TTYL
Wojo
What's that Smell
I'll take em' both Andy, in addition to the two I already put deposits on. If it's cool.
I will explain this again.
I am more frustrated than you guys are. We have HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars invested in this and no product in our hands. I field 20-30 calls every day regarding this. Asides from running the shop, putting together the builds, doing paperwork, returning emails, and planning the future of our company post 1 October I have to deal with this. This should not have happened.
When someone else machines or makes a firearm for you an ATF marking variance is required. This is how is works: Company A has a design for a lower but does not have dozens of 5 axis CNC machines. Company A then contracts company B (which has such a capability) to build their product. However, company A owns the design and wants their information engraved on the product, but company B is actually manufacturing the product and under normal circumstances would engrave their info on the product. So a "marking variance" is applied for. A lengthy document is written up with diagrams of the product, proposed markings, and reasons why this would not adversely affect interstate commerce.
So we applied for this variance. We previously had another variance with another contractor for the old lowers we made down in Kensington. I copied and pasted much of the information from that variance. I overlooked though the fact that the company is no longer called "Engage Armament" but "Engage Armament LLC". So 6 weeks was allotted for approval for the ATF variance, then broaching was scheduled after that, and then a slot of 2 weeks with the anodizer. When the 6 weeks came and went I contacted ATF Technology Branch (which is no easy task) and was told the variance was rejected due to the marking discrepancy. The guy said "fix it, send it back to me, and I'll fast track it". I then immediately corrected the variance and resubmitted as instructed. I then called and learned he was on vacation for a week. Splendid!
During this delay our spot with the broacher and anodizer came and went. When the variance finally was approved, we then had to be fit in with the contractors where we could. Hence, the 3 batches. Right now the first 300 are at anodizing. The second 350 arrived Thursday. The anodizer is fitting us in where they can. That is where we are.
This is the update I received 23 May directly from the factory:
"The broaching vendor set us back a week. They were sitting on the first batch waiting to run it, and the second batch together. We got that straightened out.
The first batch of 300pcs are currently being inspected and prepped for anodize. These will ship to the anodize vendor tomorrow at the latest. They will ship direct to you after processing.
The second batch of 350pcs arrived from the broacher yesterday. We will start the inspection and prep process tomorrow.
These will ship to anodize Thursday of next week at the latest.
The third and final batch of 350pcs are still at broaching vendor. These should not be more than a week behind the second shipment.
We hope to send the sample of your redesigned upper to you tomorrow for approval. If all goes well, and you approve the sample, we will be able to ship the 200pc upper order to anodize with the final shipment of lowers.
Our anodize vendor quotes 10 day turn but has been giving us quicker service because we are such a steady customer.
As I said before we are running your 2000pc as we speak. This order will go smoother because we have the pipeline filled.
This is the most up to date information I can give you."
That is where it is. I would also ask you to understand this was our initial step into manufacturing of this size. While I expected difficulties, I did not expect a delay like this. I do apologize and all I can say is I am working on it all the time. I am here at 9pm on a Saturday working on it. I live, breathe, and sleep this sh*t.
We will begin transfering on the 8th day. The letter from MSP today does not resolve the issue of the NICS number on the 4473 or in the bound books upon booking the item out. That letter is not an "OK, go ahead and do it it guys". Its more complex than that. I am actually considering hosting a seminar here at the shop to show anyone who wants to learn all these bullsh*t regulations, the procedures, and headaches that go along with this. Typically is not a problem, but with MSP being 70 some days behind its turned into a nightmare.
I have always had a policy regarding online posting and customer complaints. You can call me, email me, or PM me with a complaint. If you have a question thats fine. If theres a problem I'll do whatever I can to make it right or fix. If you choose not to contact me and tell me whats going on but to go online and bash me or my shop I will not provide service. If you choose to do so I have no problem canceling your order, which is why I have offered that for people who have chosen not to contact me direct but to complain publicly behind anonymity.
I am not some faceless prick. I have a family and a business I have built. You guys know me. You have spoken to me. You know the car i drive. Many of you know what a pain the ass my girlfriend is. Ive hung out with a lot of you outside the shop and have met you guys down in Annapolis. I AM APPROACHABLE. YOU CAN CALL ME. MY CELL PHONE IS ON MY BUSINESS CARD. IM A REGULAR GUY. Im not some big shot executive who is trying to rape you.
For Gods sake just relax. Its 1 June. Its 4 months until October 1. I can transfer the lower to you as type X. I can attach an upper and a stock to your lower, snap a photo. "Look, it was built into a rifle, its a rifle". I want to f*ck the state over just as much as you guys. Im losing my livelihood to this law. My mortgage, my car payments, all that is questionable post 1 October. We are all in this sh*t together.
So, all will end well. The lowers and especially the rifles will be badass. Keep calm and carry the f*ck on.
I am more frustrated than you guys are. We have HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars invested in this and no product in our hands. I field 20-30 calls every day regarding this. Asides from running the shop, putting together the builds, doing paperwork, returning emails, and planning the future of our company post 1 October I have to deal with this. This should not have happened.
When someone else machines or makes a firearm for you an ATF marking variance is required. This is how is works: Company A has a design for a lower but does not have dozens of 5 axis CNC machines. Company A then contracts company B (which has such a capability) to build their product. However, company A owns the design and wants their information engraved on the product, but company B is actually manufacturing the product and under normal circumstances would engrave their info on the product. So a "marking variance" is applied for. A lengthy document is written up with diagrams of the product, proposed markings, and reasons why this would not adversely affect interstate commerce.
So we applied for this variance. We previously had another variance with another contractor for the old lowers we made down in Kensington. I copied and pasted much of the information from that variance. I overlooked though the fact that the company is no longer called "Engage Armament" but "Engage Armament LLC". So 6 weeks was allotted for approval for the ATF variance, then broaching was scheduled after that, and then a slot of 2 weeks with the anodizer. When the 6 weeks came and went I contacted ATF Technology Branch (which is no easy task) and was told the variance was rejected due to the marking discrepancy. The guy said "fix it, send it back to me, and I'll fast track it". I then immediately corrected the variance and resubmitted as instructed. I then called and learned he was on vacation for a week. Splendid!
During this delay our spot with the broacher and anodizer came and went. When the variance finally was approved, we then had to be fit in with the contractors where we could. Hence, the 3 batches. Right now the first 300 are at anodizing. The second 350 arrived Thursday. The anodizer is fitting us in where they can. That is where we are.
This is the update I received 23 May directly from the factory:
"The broaching vendor set us back a week. They were sitting on the first batch waiting to run it, and the second batch together. We got that straightened out.
The first batch of 300pcs are currently being inspected and prepped for anodize. These will ship to the anodize vendor tomorrow at the latest. They will ship direct to you after processing.
The second batch of 350pcs arrived from the broacher yesterday. We will start the inspection and prep process tomorrow.
These will ship to anodize Thursday of next week at the latest.
The third and final batch of 350pcs are still at broaching vendor. These should not be more than a week behind the second shipment.
We hope to send the sample of your redesigned upper to you tomorrow for approval. If all goes well, and you approve the sample, we will be able to ship the 200pc upper order to anodize with the final shipment of lowers.
Our anodize vendor quotes 10 day turn but has been giving us quicker service because we are such a steady customer.
As I said before we are running your 2000pc as we speak. This order will go smoother because we have the pipeline filled.
This is the most up to date information I can give you."
That is where it is. I would also ask you to understand this was our initial step into manufacturing of this size. While I expected difficulties, I did not expect a delay like this. I do apologize and all I can say is I am working on it all the time. I am here at 9pm on a Saturday working on it. I live, breathe, and sleep this sh*t.
We will begin transfering on the 8th day. The letter from MSP today does not resolve the issue of the NICS number on the 4473 or in the bound books upon booking the item out. That letter is not an "OK, go ahead and do it it guys". Its more complex than that. I am actually considering hosting a seminar here at the shop to show anyone who wants to learn all these bullsh*t regulations, the procedures, and headaches that go along with this. Typically is not a problem, but with MSP being 70 some days behind its turned into a nightmare.
I have always had a policy regarding online posting and customer complaints. You can call me, email me, or PM me with a complaint. If you have a question thats fine. If theres a problem I'll do whatever I can to make it right or fix. If you choose not to contact me and tell me whats going on but to go online and bash me or my shop I will not provide service. If you choose to do so I have no problem canceling your order, which is why I have offered that for people who have chosen not to contact me direct but to complain publicly behind anonymity.
I am not some faceless prick. I have a family and a business I have built. You guys know me. You have spoken to me. You know the car i drive. Many of you know what a pain the ass my girlfriend is. Ive hung out with a lot of you outside the shop and have met you guys down in Annapolis. I AM APPROACHABLE. YOU CAN CALL ME. MY CELL PHONE IS ON MY BUSINESS CARD. IM A REGULAR GUY. Im not some big shot executive who is trying to rape you.
For Gods sake just relax. Its 1 June. Its 4 months until October 1. I can transfer the lower to you as type X. I can attach an upper and a stock to your lower, snap a photo. "Look, it was built into a rifle, its a rifle". I want to f*ck the state over just as much as you guys. Im losing my livelihood to this law. My mortgage, my car payments, all that is questionable post 1 October. We are all in this sh*t together.
So, all will end well. The lowers and especially the rifles will be badass. Keep calm and carry the f*ck on.
