Home Defense question

[smokey]

As an amateur watchmaker, I have a bit o' experience with springs (watches're full o' the nasty things) and nearly ALL metallic springs set (i.e., lose some of its springiness) when contained in a compressed state over time. Yes, repeated compressions/expansions will also produce some elastic fatigue, which can result in premature metallurgic damage. But spring setting should always be considered for stored magazines and is a good reason to cycle your mags and inspect their springs regularly.

It's also why that setting is factored into production. Realistically, loaded magazines are fine for decades (assuming no corrostion)

 

[Minuteman]

It's actually a relatively close analogy. Springs in general are made to work within a range. They degrade from corrosion and loadings outside that working range. The springs in the mags will not wear out from loading a magazine to capacity (which is within its working range) and leaving them loaded. Many people only load to 28 rnds in a 30 round mag....but that's so they can be seated more easily on a closed bolt. That practice has nothing to do with spring wear.

As for firearm accessibility vs. security.... general statements don't work well (I recognize the irony there). Each home has unique needs that should be factored in. Before I had a son, I was comfortable keeping a loaded AR nearby when I was home, and a handgun either on my hip or holstered to the bed. Of course they'd be locked up when I left home. After my son was born, I now keep the AR loaded and locked in a gun cabinet, with a loaded handgun locked in a lock-box within arms reach. When he's a little bigger and more able to use keys and get in to things, the gun's lock box will move to become more difficult to access... but my son will also get training.

Like a fire extinguisher, a gun doesn't do you any good if it's locked away when you need it during an emergency. The balance of accessibility vs security is just something every household needs to determine for itself.

As for ammo choice, here's some basic terminal ballistic differences to think about.....

9mm- 147 grain loads generally recoil less and perform similar to 124+p. They also have less noise along with them. Gold dots, HST's, DPX's...they're all pretty fantastic....but they're still handgun ballistics with only around 350 ftlbs of energy to cause trauma with. They're not a rifle round and will only wound by crushing a permanent cavity the depth and width of the bullet's travel. Because they're wimpy, you'll need to press the trigger more....creating more chances for someone getting shot in the background

handgun projectiles are also slow/heavy. This means they'll stay together and punch relatively straight through a lot of walls.

.223- Lighter varmint-tipped loads are sitting around 1,200 ftlbs of energy to cause trauma with. Being over 2,000 fps, the projectiles can create additional trauma by ripping and tearing instead of just crushing a cavity. Varmint-tipped loads around 50-60 grains(like the vmax) will begin fragmenting pretty early when they impact a barrier. They'll still punch through walls, but once they fragment they'll bleed off energy quickly and limit damage to anything on the other side of the walls. Keep in mind, because you are causing more trauma, you're less likely to need to send as many shots into the badguy.... reducing the chances of hits on innocents in the background.

Rifle projectiles will also punch through most body armor, where handgun ammo wont. There have been some break-ins where the badguys are wearing vests. An AR will have a huge advantage here.

There's a reason LEOs use ARs for entry...they're effective, high capacity, low-recoil, and pose less of a risk to those in the background with the correct ammo choice(not 855).

I hope this helps. Oh, also think of tossing either a suppressor or linear comp on there.... indoor shooting gets loud.

...some tips for AR HD stuff...

Interesting shoulder-bump technique that I actually kind've like using. This video definitely shows the fire superiority of having 30 rnds on-hand...although in a real fight those walls are concealment and not cover.


Here's LAV going over some basic light-work. I personally mount my light at the 6 o'clock position just forward of my AFG. If my light is on the target, and I can see them through the optic, I know my muzzle is clear. It also allows me to go left or right without splashing myself around a corner. A TLR1 @ 300 lumens is more than enough light to splash on the floor or ceiling to illuminate a room and identify people without having to muzzle-bang them. Also, to keep night vision, you can close one eye when you turn on a light to scan.

It's also why that setting is factored into production. Realistically, loaded magazines are fine for decades (assuming no corrostion)

I don't need to post anymore. Guys like Smokey have it down.

One thing I'd like to add. Let's do this with airsoft, in your home. In all my experience doing this the first few times, I'll 'win', but very quickly, you will understand and incorporate all the pointers and lessons I (and many of my friends) will give you. After that it becomes a 50/50 situation. This experience will teach you why being the guy 'walking around' is very, very bad (90% chance of being dead); against anyone with any kind of basic situational awareness and training.

Crack heads do not need to apply.

 

[Mark75H]

A .223 has less chance of over-penetration than 9mm.

If you've seen what each round does to a 3,000 page phone book, you may change your mind.

 

[Pinecone]

in my mind I don't want to mess up the springs

Springs are not damaged by being compressed.

I have some pistol mags that were fully loaded for over 15 years. they work fine.

 

[Pinecone]

That makes sense.
Same reason I inflate my tires to only ten pounds.

 

[Pinecone]

just buy extra mags and springs and rotate every once in a while.

This actually causes MORE problems with spring than leaving the loaded and leaving them alone.

Springs as fatigue by cycling.

 

[fred333]

5. How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds?

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.

Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not the always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring.

More recently higher capacity magazine have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical.

In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded at all times, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs. Regular shooting of the pistol is the best way to be sure the springs are still functioning reliably. —Wolff Gunsprings

 

[teratos]

Static compression of a spring will now wear out your spring. A decent spring will live longer than you. This should not be a problem.

 

[Alea Jacta Est]

Not ....now

 

[RoadDawg]

This actually causes MORE problems with spring than leaving the loaded and leaving them alone.

Springs as fatigue by cycling.

Correct...

Cycling a spring causes more fatigue to it than holding it in a compressed state. The second common failure is due to corrosion.

Load your mags and keep them away from moisture. You'll be fine if the time arises that you need them. In a stressful situation, the extended length of a 30 round mag with only 10 rounds loaded, is just a hinderance.

Be safe.

 

[hogarth]

5. How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds?

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.

Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not the always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring.

More recently higher capacity magazine have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical.

In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded at all times, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs. Regular shooting of the pistol is the best way to be sure the springs are still functioning reliably. —Wolff Gunsprings

So, to sum up: "what you're all doing is probably wrong, so if you insist on doing it, buy our springs!"

 

[RoadDawg]

So, to sum up: "what you're all doing is probably wrong, so if you insist on doing it, buy our springs!"

What they are saying is that most modern springs are thinner wire... And therefore may not hold up as the older springs have... Therefore, if you want to use the mags as mags have been used in the past... buy their heavier spring and install it in your mag.

Thinner, weaker springs won't last as long in the compressed state. So they offer thicker heavier duty options if you choose to buy them.

 

[highli99]

As soon as I saw the spring comment and knew this thread was getting a window seat for derailsville. OP seems to have a great setup with two good set of ammo. Only suggestion is to fill up the mags. Better to have them and not need them then visa verse.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Ok, penetration needs context instead of generalizations. Someone may indeed have interior walls constructed of 3000 page phonebooks. But in reference to typical drywall\ airspace-\ drywall interior walls,.223 penetrates less than 9mm.

 

[Tungsten]

High powered laser beams dont have springs and dont penetrate walls. It's the 21st century people!!!!. Just sayin'. Any LGS got one of these please PM me the price.

 

[Pinecone]

5. How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds?

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.

Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not the always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring.

More recently higher capacity magazine have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical.

In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded at all times, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs. Regular shooting of the pistol is the best way to be sure the springs are still functioning reliably. —Wolff Gunsprings

Yeap, from a company that makes and sells SPRINGS.

 

[G29guy]

Ok, penetration needs context instead of generalizations. Someone may indeed have interior walls constructed of 3000 page phonebooks. But in reference to typical drywall\ airspace-\ drywall interior walls,.223 penetrates less than 9mm.

...I have walls filled w/ phone books...what else do you do w/ all the ones they keep leaving in your driveway these days...

 

[fred333]

Yeap, from a company that makes and sells SPRINGS.

Point taken (which didn't escape me). But any watch- or clock-maker will tell you the same thing (springs take on a "set" when left compressed)....and, although we work with alot of them, we don't sell springs. Just sayin'.

 

[Hit and Run]

Still prefer a handgun as I can control it better in a fight that got to close via surprise. Ya, I know, don't get surprised but it happens ....

 

[vgplayer]

Hang around on https://www.facebook.com/ActiveSelfProtection long enough and you will go from 10 rounds is good enough to I can justify the Magpul D-60. They had a security cam video a while back of 6 or 7 armed bad guys rushing through the front door.

My vote is for AR with quality defensive ammo.