Home Defense question

[arbud]

Ok guys I will throw out the usual barriers to a question like this.
Shot placement, practice practice practice, reliability of weapon, 12ga shotgun.
Ok I live in a town house plaster walls and cinder block. I have 2 defensive weapons: an ar 16" and a 9mm carbine. I actually feel a lot more comfortable with the 9mm carbine but have plenty of experience with both. Both have forward grips. I know what the 223 round will do to a bad guy and I also know what a 124gr+p will do to a bad guy. I just keep 10 rounds in each. Would hope a problem could be solved within 10 rounds.
I am just trying to make this a pick or choose one or the other. I am not looking for all the usual help. Thank you guys.

 

[Boom Boom]

A 9mm carbine with HP defensive ammo is more than up to the task, if it's reliable.

 

[BossmanPJ]

I am partial to my AR. You may want to consider varmint ammo for home defense in .223.

Having said that, if you are more comfortable with the 9mm use it. The last thing you need to be thinking of in a situation is where your safety is or any other operational aspect of your firearm.

 

[arbud]

My round in the ar is Fed 50 gr vmax tip. It is frangible

 

[BossmanPJ]

My round in the ar is Fed 50 gr vmax tip. It is frangible

Then you are all set.

 

[Threeband]

Why do you download to ten rounds?

 

[arbud]

in my mind I don't want to mess up the springs

 

[lazarus]

Assuming you have no kids in the house and yourself and others who couldn't have access have zero depression and it is locked up, the 9mm carbine. Unsecured guns even with no kids in the house is always a horrible idea. Especially is left loaded or with ammo also accessible. Bad guy gets to it before you do or gets to it while you are out of the house and...

On the depression, lots of studies show even if you have access to the gun, every step reduces the chance of actually committing suicide by ~10%. Guns and ammo locked up together and pre-loaded, 10% less likely to go through with it than everything unsecured. Guns and ammo locked up and guns not loaded, 10% less likely. Gun and ammo locked seperately, 10% less likely.

Unless you live somewhere where break-ins are common, I'd never store a gun loaded. In a situation like that your better bet is a pistol in a biometric or quick combo case right where you sleep, high powered mini flash light in there and one or two clips not in the gun.

One consideration even in strictly sticking to what you are asking would be the better home defense gun, 9mm carbine is going to be a lot quieter indoors than a 9mm carbine going off. Can be damned disorienting for yourself with no hearing protection rocking several rounds in a hallway. Probably less muzzle flash too from the 9mm. 9mm even with HP is probably going to penetrate furniture or cabins tart better than a 5.56 with frangibke rounds. A 5.56 with HP or soft point are probably unlikely to penetrate cinderblock, but they probably will punch through your front and rear exterior walls pretty well unless those also happen to be cinderblock.

 

[DutchV]

A .223 has less chance of over-penetration than 9mm. And I'd load that mag to 28 or 29 rounds, not ten. Ammo is cheap, be generous. You may have multiple issues to deal with. Home invasion has become popular with the criminal class lately.

 

[Threeband]

in my mind I don't want to mess up the springs

That makes sense.
Same reason I inflate my tires to only ten pounds.

 

[arbud]

Well okay Threeband could you be any more sarcastic.

 

[Minuteman]

Good advice here so far.

My simple answer: the 9mm carbine, because you said you are more comfortable with it.

A couple other points:
- which 9mm carbine, is it reliable, run flawlessly?
- do you have extra mags for both?
- AR is generally a better gun, and gives you more range, more rounds, less over-penetration hazard, especially with frang rounds. I'd pick AR of these choices for me.
- teach your spouse, Roomate, whatever to use the other gun.
- load the mags to near capacity, good idea to leave out a couple rounds for springs; but down loading to just 10 rounds is like half filling your gas tank for fear of a bigger explosion in the unlikely event your car catches on fire.

Stay safe!

 

[G29guy]

Ok guys I will throw out the usual barriers to a question like this.
Shot placement, practice practice practice, reliability of weapon, 12ga shotgun.
Ok I live in a town house plaster walls and cinder block. I have 2 defensive weapons: an ar 16" and a 9mm carbine. I actually feel a lot more comfortable with the 9mm carbine but have plenty of experience with both. Both have forward grips. I know what the 223 round will do to a bad guy and I also know what a 124gr+p will do to a bad guy. I just keep 10 rounds in each. Would hope a problem could be solved within 10 rounds.
I am just trying to make this a pick or choose one or the other. I am not looking for all the usual help. Thank you guys.

They do make .223 hollow points...me, I'd keep mags around 15- that's just me. I look@ the world and see lots of "mob" or "gang" attacks of 3 or more people, so 15rds under thAt idea would be 3-5per target...neither round there should penetrate cinder block, I would go w/ .223 since I'm guessing theyre about the same size weapons

After reading your logic on mag springs you could load a 20rd mag to15 or a 30rd mag to 20 or 22 and still keep tension off the springs. Some will say it's not necessary but it's your gear and there's no definitive proof that it does or doesn't help, so it won't hurt...

Hey Laz: does your policy on loaded guns around the house mean I'm wrong for sleeping w/ one under my pillow?

 

[smokey]

That makes sense.
Same reason I inflate my tires to only ten pounds.

Well okay Threeband could you be any more sarcastic.

It's actually a relatively close analogy. Springs in general are made to work within a range. They degrade from corrosion and loadings outside that working range. The springs in the mags will not wear out from loading a magazine to capacity (which is within its working range) and leaving them loaded. Many people only load to 28 rnds in a 30 round mag....but that's so they can be seated more easily on a closed bolt. That practice has nothing to do with spring wear.

As for firearm accessibility vs. security.... general statements don't work well (I recognize the irony there). Each home has unique needs that should be factored in. Before I had a son, I was comfortable keeping a loaded AR nearby when I was home, and a handgun either on my hip or holstered to the bed. Of course they'd be locked up when I left home. After my son was born, I now keep the AR loaded and locked in a gun cabinet, with a loaded handgun locked in a lock-box within arms reach. When he's a little bigger and more able to use keys and get in to things, the gun's lock box will move to become more difficult to access... but my son will also get training.

Like a fire extinguisher, a gun doesn't do you any good if it's locked away when you need it during an emergency. The balance of accessibility vs security is just something every household needs to determine for itself.

As for ammo choice, here's some basic terminal ballistic differences to think about.....

9mm- 147 grain loads generally recoil less and perform similar to 124+p. They also have less noise along with them. Gold dots, HST's, DPX's...they're all pretty fantastic....but they're still handgun ballistics with only around 350 ftlbs of energy to cause trauma with. They're not a rifle round and will only wound by crushing a permanent cavity the depth and width of the bullet's travel. Because they're wimpy, you'll need to press the trigger more....creating more chances for someone getting shot in the background

handgun projectiles are also slow/heavy. This means they'll stay together and punch relatively straight through a lot of walls.

.223- Lighter varmint-tipped loads are sitting around 1,200 ftlbs of energy to cause trauma with. Being over 2,000 fps, the projectiles can create additional trauma by ripping and tearing instead of just crushing a cavity. Varmint-tipped loads around 50-60 grains(like the vmax) will begin fragmenting pretty early when they impact a barrier. They'll still punch through walls, but once they fragment they'll bleed off energy quickly and limit damage to anything on the other side of the walls. Keep in mind, because you are causing more trauma, you're less likely to need to send as many shots into the badguy.... reducing the chances of hits on innocents in the background.

Rifle projectiles will also punch through most body armor, where handgun ammo wont. There have been some break-ins where the badguys are wearing vests. An AR will have a huge advantage here.

There's a reason LEOs use ARs for entry...they're effective, high capacity, low-recoil, and pose less of a risk to those in the background with the correct ammo choice(not 855).

I hope this helps. Oh, also think of tossing either a suppressor or linear comp on there.... indoor shooting gets loud.

...some tips for AR HD stuff...

Interesting shoulder-bump technique that I actually kind've like using. This video definitely shows the fire superiority of having 30 rnds on-hand...although in a real fight those walls are concealment and not cover.


Here's LAV going over some basic light-work. I personally mount my light at the 6 o'clock position just forward of my AFG. If my light is on the target, and I can see them through the optic, I know my muzzle is clear. It also allows me to go left or right without splashing myself around a corner. A TLR1 @ 300 lumens is more than enough light to splash on the floor or ceiling to illuminate a room and identify people without having to muzzle-bang them. Also, to keep night vision, you can close one eye when you turn on a light to scan.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Either would be plenty effective.

Penetration in felons would depend on the specific load in either, and greatly overlaps.

The .223 would penetrate LESS thru walls, if that is a deciding factor.

If wall penetration isn't the over riding factor, then simply whichever one YOU shoot better. Meaning quick handling, and rapid COM hits, not necessarilly benchrest group size, unless you have long range defensive needs not inherently implied with home defense.

I do believe in down loading AR magazines ( for the above mentioned 100% easy seating regardless of bolt position ) . But we're talking 18rd in a 20rd mag, and 27 or 28 in a 30rd'er . But there is no possable advantage to loading only 10rd , unless it is a 10rd magazine.

 

[MikeTF]

Excellent write-up smokey0118!

 

[Helpinghand]

Joe

Ok guys I will throw out the usual barriers to a question like this.
Shot placement, practice practice practice, reliability of weapon, 12ga shotgun.
Ok I live in a town house plaster walls and cinder block. I have 2 defensive weapons: an ar 16" and a 9mm carbine. I actually feel a lot more comfortable with the 9mm carbine but have plenty of experience with both. Both have forward grips. I know what the 223 round will do to a bad guy and I also know what a 124gr+p will do to a bad guy. I just keep 10 rounds in each. Would hope a problem could be solved within 10 rounds.
I am just trying to make this a pick or choose one or the other. I am not looking for all the usual help. Thank you guys.

Mr. Joe Bidden, aka the Vice president says nothing like couple blast of a shotgun. to show you mean business. He is the vice president and knows thing or two regarding safety.






















self defense, right?
Government people are our friends and should be trusted to do lawful and rightful actions..

 

[danb]

Please shoot me with the 9mm instead of the AR, said no bad guy ever.

Mag springs are $2.50 or less - just buy extra mags and springs and rotate every once in a while. I've kept fully loaded mags for over a year, and then emptied them with zero difficulties. And, I have a mini-14 which is infamous for mag idiosyncrasies.

Overpenetration is somewhat of a trope. A 9mm will go through 7+ layers of drywall or more, as will a .223, so "overpenetration" is vastly over hyped - both rounds have that issue! http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/).

Hollow points btw just tend to fill up with drywall plaster and act like FMJs.

Also, 12ga shot at self defense ranges tends to act like a slug anyway, the shot is not very spread out (depends of what you pick and what choke of course).

Overpenetration is less of a worry if you hit your target, so choose whichever maximizes your chance of hitting a target reliably at 50 feet or less under pressure.

 

[smokey]

Please shoot me with the 9mm instead of the AR, said no bad guy ever.

Mag springs are $2.50 or less - just buy extra mags and springs and rotate every once in a while. I've kept fully loaded mags for over a year, and then emptied them with zero difficulties. And, I have a mini-14 which is infamous for mag idiosyncrasies.

Overpenetration is somewhat of a trope. A 9mm will go through 7+ layers of drywall or more, as will a .223, so "overpenetration" is vastly over hyped - both rounds have that issue! http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/).

Hollow points btw just tend to fill up with drywall plaster and act like FMJs.

Also, 12ga shot at self defense ranges tends to act like a slug anyway, the shot is not very spread out (depends of what you pick and what choke of course).



Overpenetration is less of a worry if you hit your target, so choose whichever maximizes your chance of hitting a target reliably at 50 feet or less under pressure.

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html
Here's another penetration test. Having all those sheets of drywall within a couple inches of each other doesn't really paint a realistic picture, as it doesn't give the projectiles time to break up and bleed off energy through air resistance. It also carries the drywall itself into/through the next sheet.

Still though, yeah...anything able to sufficiently penetrate a person will go through lots of walls. Some would even argue that it's desirable to have a defensive load able to penetrate barriers well, because you may be shooting a badguy through a wall/door/couch in some cases. Having the benefit of planning, you can also position yourself where your shots can end up in a more "safe" direction.

For my home, firing down my stairs or dropping level and firing at an upward angle(on the top floor) can help ensure my shots end up away from my neighbors.

 

[fred333]

As an amateur watchmaker, I have a bit o' experience with springs (watches're full o' the nasty things) and nearly ALL metallic springs set (i.e., lose some of its springiness) when contained in a compressed state over time. Yes, repeated compressions/expansions will also produce some elastic fatigue, which can result in premature metallurgic damage. But spring setting should always be considered for stored magazines and is a good reason to cycle your mags and inspect their springs regularly.