Hearing on SB281 on July 22, 2014

[SRD]

This has been quite an eye-opener for me.
Thank you all for the enlightening experience.
I've always had an interest in firearms, but it's only been the past month that I've started doing anything about it.

The more I learn, the more I'm like, "WTF?!"
I've since joined the NRA (easy pay Lifetime) and MSI (Sustaining)

Thanks again for all the work, and updates today.

Cheers.

This place is the best for keeping up with what is going on.MSi and AGC are also top notch.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

Yes, in about two weeks.

Since you're new, this is the running gag when someone asks how long th court will take to rule. It will rule when it rules and not before. If could be tomorrow, it could be next week.

Appreciate the explanation.

I'm guessing I won't be the only one wearing out the refresh button waiting for news.

 

[dblas]

If we get a good ruling out of this, I'm planning on saving up for a celebratory AK.

You will have a good while to save up, because it will be appealed to the 4th Circuit.

 

[woodstock]

don't do that. you'll go nuts and they will come take yer guns away.

 

[dblas]

If this judge ruled this "law" unconstitutional, then granting a stay would then in fact be hypocritical and unconstitutional. Right?

Nope, Judge Legg ruled in our favor on the Wollard case, but issued a stay while the case was heard in the 4th Circuit.

 

[Mr H]

Nope, Judge Legg ruled in our favor on the Wollard case, but issued a stay while the case was heard in the 4th Circuit.

Not disagreeing, but...

Here we have an interesting wrinkle, in that folks are now able once again to buy AR-platform lowers, potentially removing some of the teeth from the law.

 

[dblas]

Perhaps, perhaps....

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

Anyone know why Frosh was able to get an assigned seat while the rest of us did not? Under what theory does he deserve special treatment?

 

[Mr H]

Anyone know why Frosh was able to get an assigned seat while the rest of us did not? Under what theory does he deserve special treatment?

Frosh should always be placed in an approptiate recepticle.

 

[DC-W]

Frosh should always be placed in an approptiate recepticle.

Grocery bag if from an animal.

 

[oldman12]

Frosh should always be placed in an approptiate recepticle.

You should always flush after you take a Frosh. Thanks to all that went.

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

Did those that were there catch the State's argument that the writers of the 2A would not have envisioned target practice as part of the right? Then our side argued that the State did believe that target practice was part of the right and proffered that the State agreed?

 

[Mr H]

Did those that were there catch the State's argument that the writers of the 2A would not have envisioned target practice as part of the right? Then our side argued that the State did believe that target practice was part of the right and proffered that the State agreed?

I'm not telling tales out of school when I say that, for anyone who has read the filings and/or been involved in the genesis/implementation of FSA13, the State has continually been very self-contradictory in a lot of what has been said about this POS law.

We know it was hastily conceived, poorly constructed, and heinously rammed through (even with the good our side was able to do for Marylanders).

 

[Jim12]

WBAL news this morning, while commenting on the case, said that since the law was passed, gun crimes were down 24%.

I have no idea where they came up with those numbers, and I have been searching for them since they said it. Sure wish they would provide their source and data. They don't even have a link to their report this morning.

If true, and I'm skeptical, it appears that the same could be said of gun crimes since the rain tax was passed.

Let's tax all the rain, and eliminate gun crimes once and for all.

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

This is my theory of the case in simple terms.
We want the case to be reviewed under strict scrutiny because it is a fundamental right requiring the state to prove a compelling state interest. The state wants the case to be reviewed under some intermediate scrutiny review because they have no data to suggest what they are passing will work.

Everybody should be concerned with this type of thinking from the state. If they can pass any law infringing on a fundamental right, without having to show a compelling state interest (or not show anything at all), we are doomed as a nation. Its a shame our civilian opponents don't see this.

 

[fabsroman]

Did those that were there catch the State's argument that the writers of the 2A would not have envisioned target practice as part of the right? Then our side argued that the State did believe that target practice was part of the right and proffered that the State agreed?

It was a little different than that. The state said that the framers of the Constitution would not have thought of the 2nd Amendment as including competitive shooting.

On redress, Plaintiff's counsel said that while the state does not agree that the 2nd Amendment protects competitive shooting, the framers would have envisioned proficiency shooting to maintain one's skills and the state would not argue with that.

Not done exactly in those words, but close enough. I saw Mr. Fader cringe for a second when Mr. Sweeney said that, but there was no way for Mr. Fader to argue that the framers did not want people to practice with their firearms and be proficient with them.

End of the day, I think it is a non-issue in the case regarding competitive shooting/proficiency shooting. As long as a firearm is not banned, the person should be proficient with it. SB281 even allows for the transportation of grandfathered firearms and handguns to and from the range.

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

It was a little different than that. The state said that the framers of the Constitution would not have thought of the 2nd Amendment as including competitive shooting.

On redress, Plaintiff's counsel said that while the state does not agree that the 2nd Amendment protects competitive shooting, the framers would have envisioned proficiency shooting to maintain one's skills and the state would not argue with that.

Not done exactly in those words, but close enough. I saw Mr. Fader cringe for a second when Mr. Sweeney said that, but there was no way for Mr. Fader to argue that the framers did not want people to practice with their firearms and be proficient with them.

End of the day, I think it is a non-issue in the case regarding competitive shooting/proficiency shooting. As long as a firearm is not banned, the person should be proficient with it. SB281 even allows for the transportation of grandfathered firearms and handguns to and from the range.

I did not catch that subtlety. Thanks for clarifying. I can't understand how someone could conclude competition would not be part of that. Is competitive sports a post revolutionary concept?

I guess they never jousted, participated in the hammer throw, caber toss, weight throw, etc., all while wearing a skirt!

 

[Publius]

WBAL news this morning, while commenting on the case, said that since the law was passed, gun crimes were down 24%.

I have no idea where they came up with those numbers, and I have been searching for them since they said it. Sure wish they would provide their source and data. They don't even have a link to their report this morning.

http://www.wboc.com/story/26074623/gun-control-success

That is possible. Michael Levy in this article is right. I remember reading (was either Kleck, Lott or Don Kates pointing out) that a temporary impact of some gun control laws is a reduction in crime due to all the publicity that passage of such laws gets, which reminds criminals that victims are potentially armed. And last year, the 100,000-plus handguns and rifles we bought certainly got publicity.

 

[fabsroman]

I did not catch that subtlety. Thanks for clarifying. I can't understand how someone could conclude competition would not be part of that. Is competitive sports a post revolutionary concept?

I guess they never jousted, participated in the hammer throw, caber toss, weight throw, etc., all while wearing a skirt!

The question is whether the sport is protected by the 2nd Amendment, and I would tend to say it is not. In my opinion, the 2nd Amendment is for a militia and self defense. I do think that proficiency with a firearm is part of a well regulated militia and an integral part of self defense. So, you can stretch and say that competitive shooting is a form of proficiency practice that makes shooters even better under the pressure of competition, which is as close to a self defense/combat situation as is possible in practice.

 

[fabsroman]

http://www.wboc.com/story/26074623/gun-control-success

That is possible. Michael Levy in this article is right. I remember reading (was either Kleck, Lott or Don Kates pointing out) that a temporary impact of some gun control laws is a reduction in crime due to all the publicity that passage of such laws gets, which reminds criminals that victims are potentially armed. And last year, the 100,000-plus handguns and rifles we bought certainly got publicity.

Somewhat ironic that the state made the argument today that a study of the federal assault weapon ban over a ten (10) year period could not be conclusive because the time frame was not long enough and the ban did not prevent the transfer of the pre-existing firearms. Well, Form 77r in Maryland would have prevented the transfer of any regulated firearm to a criminal prior to FSA2013, so there should have been no real immediate impact from the ban of assault weapons.

Now, they might be able to make the argument when it comes to the HQL and handguns, but even that is a stretch. Pretty sure there are plenty of handguns still floating around Baltimore City and PG County.