Ak, or Ar???

[brianong18]

I went with both. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses and they both do a good job complementing each other.

 

[jpo183]

if anything hits the fan AR, just supplies and parts would be readily available and for the most part, the parts from DPMS will work in a spikes. AK there are many variants and look aliks that do not share many things. But I think both are good rifles b ut ultimately comes down to maintainability

I know people are saying spare parts would be more abundant, but would it be fair to say you wouldn't need them with an AK?

Heck what if you just cant get any lube for the AR?

 

[BradMacc82]

I know people are saying spare parts would be more abundant, but would it be fair to say you wouldn't need them with an AK?

Heck what if you just cant get any lube for the AR?

If your firing enough with an AR to need spare parts, your going to need them with the AK as well, under the same firing schedule.

As long as there's clean motor oil around, your going to have lube for the AR.

If you've shot enough to shoot out the barrel on a AR, it's easy to replace. Same scenario with the AK, barrel's not so easy to replace.

Shoot out a barrel on an AR, and you have almost new AK accuracy. (Some may shoot better than others, but the AK has never really been a true precision oriented rig, let's be honest.)

In THIS country, give me an AR. In some other countries, I'll take the AK. Gotta go with what's most available in your current surroundings, IMO.

 

[Scott7891]

If your firing enough with an AR to need spare parts, your going to need them with the AK as well, under the same firing schedule.

The only parts that need replacing in the AK in the long run are firing pins, extractor, extractor spring, and the recoil spring. I know this from buying an AK from the 80's that was well abused. Replacing those parts fixed the problem. Even when I used the gun with those worn parts it was still fairly reliable.

If you've shot enough to shoot out the barrel on a AR, it's easy to replace. Same scenario with the AK, barrel's not so easy to replace.

If you are using a substandard U.S. made AK barrel that doesn't have the durability of the factory imported originals I agree with you that they will need to be replaced.

Arsenal in Bulgaria has an AK in their museum with a round count of 80,000 rounds that is still trucking and shoots fine.

Shoot out a barrel on an AR, and you have almost new AK accuracy. (Some may shoot better than others, but the AK has never really been a true precision oriented rig, let's be honest.)

Like someone else pointed out in the thread look at the Indian not the arrow. The AK is plenty accurate if one knows how to shoot it. Problem is many don't and because they can't shoot it well they automatically blame the gun and not the shooter. If the same anecdote is because of the people we are fighting overseas that's comparing apples to oranges there (lightly-trained guerillas against a professional military). Let's see that hold up to the Russians.

Also don't forget the AK-74 and AK-100 variants.

In THIS country, give me an AR. In some other countries, I'll take the AK. Gotta go with what's most available in your current surroundings, IMO.

Do you think the guerillas in other countries go to a store to get their replacement AK parts? Same thing would apply here. In a SHTF you are stuck with what you have unless you are lucky to have a machinist in your crew or you stumble upon some hidden cache.

Then again AK's were designed to be stupid proof, to be used in the worst conditions on earth which the Soviets lived under daily, and deliberately over-engineered to last well beyond when they should be replaced as has been proven over and over again in conflicts worldwide.

 

[ObsceneJesster]

Finding a hidden cache isn't the only way to find parts. In a SHTF, you're going to come across parts/ammo in homes, on dead bodies and people you meet up with. Using a AR in the US, also ensures that you're using the sane rifle and ammunition most common with local police and military.

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[BradMacc82]

Points taken.

To me all of this is still more of a broadsword vs. scalpel debate. The AK (broadsword) has it's own attritubutes, and the AR (scalpel) has it's own.

From my own experience, I feel that's a fair assesment in terminology. Best group from a standard 16" D.I. AR is under 4/10th's of an inch at 100 yards, using standard ammo, not handloads. Best group with an AK in 7.62x39 (optic equipped at that) was just a small amount over an inch at the same distance, using Wolf of all things. Both groups are very respectable for a readily available and somewhat common platform.

*And I don't believe the guerillas bother with getting replacement parts, they just get a replacement rifle. As a soviet once said: "Quantity has it's own quality."

 

[jpo183]

I'm getting ready to build my own AR and love reading these threads to get some insight. my big worry though is that I hear a lot of problems with ARs. I hear people say well its not quality then I hear people have quality ars at the end up being bad later. I read this from instructors who run multi day training. AR15.com has some good reads.

 

[ObsceneJesster]

I'm getting ready to build my own AR and love reading these threads to get some insight. my big worry though is that I hear a lot of problems with ARs. I hear people say well its not quality then I hear people have quality ars at the end up being bad later. I read this from instructors who run multi day training. AR15.com has some good reads.

People who have a problem with AR's are usually those who don't understand how the system works, build it with the wrong parts, buy someone else's crappy build or buy from a manufacture who isn't exactly reputable.

Here's a pretty good read. It's a torture test performed with steal case and brass case. They torture one AR so bad that the handguard actually catches on fire. They throw it in some muddy water to cool it down and then continue to fire it.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

 

[BradMacc82]

I'm getting ready to build my own AR and love reading these threads to get some insight. my big worry though is that I hear a lot of problems with ARs. I hear people say well its not quality then I hear people have quality ars at the end up being bad later. I read this from instructors who run multi day training. AR15.com has some good reads.

The exact same thing can be applied to AK's. Arsenal - $$, but generally great overall, Century - hit and miss. Money spent is not always a guarantee on the performance you'll get. Arsenal can have something bad slip thru just as easily as Colt, BCM, DD or whoever else you want to name.

Mechanical things can and will ultimately fail if used (or misused) often enough and for long enough. Majority of issues with AR's can be attributed to the end user. Ammo, mags, modifications done improperly, lack of training, etc.

Great example, I have one AR that's close to 8.5K rounds expended. Aside from one batch of questionable ammo, it has been dead nuts reliable. I had another AR that was one issue after another. They were from the same manufacturer. The only difference was the operating system, D.I. vs. G.P.

Pick your parts or Manufacturer carefully, and the odds are in your favor.

 

[BradMacc82]

*And this is not directed at you OP.

But can we start beating people with a wet fish for doing these "VS." threads, it's just the same circular discussion and it gets really fvcking annoying.

 

[MDcompetition]

AR is the easiest platform to build upon, even from scratch.

 

[whitelightning777]

Sorta

When I see these sorts of threads, I naturally suggest getting an AK in 5.56 & an AR in 7.62x39. (armalite upper) Then ask to borrow ammo from the other. --. Highly entertaining!!

Seriously, I own a SA-93 from Bulgaria. I maintain it well. Thousands of rounds later, the barrel still looks virgin and the rest of the gun runs perfectly. I've had zero jams, misfires or failure to feeds... since 1996. Three words: chrome lined barrel.

Recently, I added a Zastava M76 to my collection. There was a problem with the magazine sitting to low, fixed it & now it's mostly fine. CAI was the culprit.

Ironically, since I take care of my guns, AR jamming up etc wouldn't be an issue. Go figure. Do consider a DMR if you get only one rifle and go with the AK. It's better for hunting and will probably hold its value better.

As with any rifle, use grease on the rotating bolt and oil everywhere else something goes back and forth. The reason is to prevent wear and tear. The gun will run one way or the other. M76 magazines must be lightly oiled, regular AK mags can run dry. A little bit of CLP to prevent rust never hurt any one.

For the price of a gas piston AR, you can get a top of the line AK. My SA-93 shoots 3-4 moa. The M76 is sensitive to ammo types, still haven't figured out what it likes quite yet. At 100 yards cold with full power good surplus like Greek or S&B, I'm getting half dollar to quarter size groups. That's between 1-2 moa. What is not to like?



Despite all that, I'm still looking at getting a stripped lower or two. A good attitude is the most important factor, not getting one or the other.

 

[HailSkins]

I went with both (inexpensive) DPMS oracle and the M&M M10. When the zombie apocalypse comes, I will be dual-wielding these. Both will have 100 round drums and slide fire stocks. After I destroy half my neighborhood as well not hitting a single zombie, I will wish I had gone with a garand. In all seriousness, I couldn't make up my mind either. I have an SKS and like the 7.62x39 round. I will probably buy a couple of good lowers in case I want to build a fancy AR.

 

[jpo183]

People who have a problem with AR's are usually those who don't understand how the system works, build it with the wrong parts, buy someone else's crappy build or buy from a manufacture who isn't exactly reputable.

Here's a pretty good read. It's a torture test performed with steal case and brass case. They torture one AR so bad that the handguard actually catches on fire. They throw it in some muddy water to cool it down and then continue to fire it.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

Wow great test. I am amazed at the ammo influence on the barrel.

I'd like to see this same test against AK variants

 

[ObsceneJesster]

Wow great test. I am amazed at the ammo influence on the barrel.

I'd like to see this same test against AK variants

I would imagine a chrome lined barrel is a chrome lined barrel whether it's sitting in a AR receiver or an AK receiver.

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[erwos]

I would imagine a chrome lined barrel is a chrome lined barrel whether it's sitting in a AR receiver or an AK receiver.

The theory is that a CHF barrel might be more resistant to this sort of abuse.

 

[ObsceneJesster]

The theory is that a CHF barrel might be more resistant to this sort of abuse.

Does CHF stand for Chrome Hammer Forged? If so, I don't believe the Bushmaster barrels used in testing were hammer forged but the better AR manufacturers use them. I don't know much about AK barrels and whether or not they're hammer forged.

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[Kingjamez]

Just like most high quality AR barrels, most foreign made AR barrels are cold hammer forged. There is an argument that an AK barrel will last longer because of the lower velocity of 7.62x39.

That said, this argument is useless so why say anything else?
-Jim

 

[sleepingdino]

Here is the final answer.

Get both while you can. Prices are better than they were 3 months ago. Try to get a thousand rounds of ammo for each (buying gradually, so you don't overpay egregiously).

Become proficient with each. Be ready for the apocalypse.

 

[Scott7891]

I would imagine a chrome lined barrel is a chrome lined barrel whether it's sitting in a AR receiver or an AK receiver.

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AR CHF barrels are essentially standardized in this country with many companies I would assume contracting out to a few well-known barrel makers that use them on their rifles like FNH as an example of a CHF AR barrel maker.

AK barrels are not the same depending on where they come from. Saigas, Arsenals, WASR's, M+M's, and kit guns that were able to use foreign barrels all have hammer forged chrome-lined barrels except the Yugo PAP's/builds which are hammer forged only because they were designed and issued to use brass-cased ammo only. Shooters beware the long run of using steel-cased ammo in Yugo barrels.

American AK barrels are button-rifled even the chrome ones. They will not last in the long run compared to a factory original just by the process alone used to make button-rifling which has to use inherently lesser quality steel to move the button down the barrel. Also there have been issues of American chrome barrels flaking prematurely from not being applied evenly as well as not going through the proper QC process of making sure it is good. Not saying it is universal but enough for me to stay away from them. Foreign barrels in my AK's only please unless an American company CHF's them from factory blueprints like the Russians, Bulgarians, etc. do.