Home Defense question

[smokey]

Point taken (which didn't escape me). But any watch- or clock-maker will tell you the same thing (springs take on a "set" when left compressed)....and, although we work with alot of them, we don't sell springs. Just sayin'.

Again, I mentioned that is taken into consideration during manufacturing. Will a spring take a "set" when compressed? Yes. This plastic deformation will be beneficial in the long run as it makes the spring more resilient to the forces acting on it(especially in a highly controlled environment like a magazine body where travel is limited to a working range). That's why magazine manufactures a) make springs slightly longer than they need to be b) often will "preset" their springs.

Will a spring experience "stress relaxation" if it's left permanently loaded? Yes. The degree will be dependent on the intensity of force acting on it, temp, and basic metallurgy stuff. Again, mag manufacturers have factored this in to design and made springs slightly stronger than they really need to be. It's also a suuuuper slow process and shouldn't be an issue for most people during the life of a magazine. Cyclical wear isn't really a concern because the spring would have to go through multiple thousands of cycles for it to come in to play.

In real world practice, number your mags and load emm up. Use them and if you notice a bad mag that's misfeeding, chuck it and replace it. Springs aren't the only reason a mag can go bad. Feed lips can be buggered up as well as the internal body just getting too crudded for the follower to move well (so clean them occasionally). Mags are the heart of the gun, but are also luckily really cheap for such a vital part.

Sooo that should be that. Back to the 9mm carbine or AR choice. In my earlier post, I mentioned some overpenetration stuff and how the home turn offers some benefits. If penetration is a concern, you can also preemptively act by toughening up the backdrop where you may be firing.

By rehearsing, I've already identified a few good places to be in the event of a defensive shooting in my home. Knowing probably directions of fire from me and to me, I can either pickup some professional ballistic barriers(they're getting cheaper these days) and fortify walls/furniture....or use the redneck version. The redneck version is essentially a bunch of sheets of tiles from home depot packed inside of something like duct tape or nylon. Screwed to the back of a bookshelf, they actually can be relatively effective in providing protection.

 

[lazarus]

Hang around on https://www.facebook.com/ActiveSelfProtection long enough and you will go from 10 rounds is good enough to I can justify the Magpul D-60. They had a security cam video a while back of 6 or 7 armed bad guys rushing through the front door.

My vote is for AR with quality defensive ammo.

I'm gonna go with worrying about the 1 or 2 guys who are thinking about a quick B&E and not the gang possibly bent on robbery and murder. Too much paranoia is rather bad for your enjoyment of life and living in a dangerous enough area where the lifetime odds of seeing more than a simple B&E being more than the odds of winning the powerball making such paranoi justified probably is also.

 

[Minuteman]

Hypothetically, I can imagine if one were to have a couple safes hidden in a concealed 'safe room', the owner might be able to establish an adequate hasty fighting position between the safes, with the doors providing flexible turret like options.

So a badguy or three would have to find you and your family in your disguised safe room, then, you are still fighting from a superior defended position.

Not that I know anyone who has plans to use safe(s) as cover, but it's something to think about, if one were so lucky to have a safe(s); and unlucky enough to have a home invasion.

 

[fred333]

Not that I know anyone who has plans to use safe(s) as cover, but it's something to think about, if one were so lucky to have a safe(s); and unlucky enough to have a home invasion.

A bookcase (filled with books) works nearly as well and they're alot easier to fit (aesthetically) around the average home than are safes. A handful of strategically placed mirrors (so you can view otherwise blind areas), safes, cell phones and firearms and you're in pretty good shape to defend your home against an invasion.

 

[Minuteman]

A bookcase (filled with books) works nearly as well and they're alot easier to fit (aesthetically) around the average home than are safes. A handful of strategically placed mirrors (so you can view otherwise blind areas), safes, cell phones and firearms and you're in pretty good shape to defend your home against an invasion.

Good points. Sounds like we might want to compare notes one day.

Shiny reflective surfaces work even better than mirrors, and I'm a fan of motion activated lights.

 

[danb]

Planning where in my house I will encounter a bad guy seems hugely impractical, and unlikely to work. One's best bet strategically is to stay put and let the bg come to you. But that is not something people usually do. If I hear a noise or the dog barks suspiciously, I go check it out. If you do plan to wait until the bg is in a particular location/position, work on the story you will tell the police, so it does not seem like you lured the bg into position so you could shoot him/her.

 

[smokey]

Planning where in my house I will encounter a bad guy seems hugely impractical, and unlikely to work. One's best bet strategically is to stay put and let the bg come to you. But that is not something people usually do. If I hear a noise or the dog barks suspiciously, I go check it out. If you do plan to wait until the bg is in a particular location/position, work on the story you will tell the police, so it does not seem like you lured the bg into position so you could shoot him/her.

Planning can mean identifying where to "stay put and let the bg come to you", as well as identifying the best ways/places to navigate your home if you do go searching. An example is at my home under the scenario, "I wake up to the door being kicked in". My first priority after getting my gun is to take the upper threshold of the stairs to keep anyone from getting into my kid's room. Once that happens, I can move to where I can clear the stairs and pretty much stay put there as my wife gets my son and the other guns/ calls 911. From there, my shots will go into the ground and the threats will be at too steep of an upward angle to reach where my wife and son will be. If I barricaded behind a door in a room, then I'd be firing in the direction of my neighbors.

For moving around stuff, rehearsing can get you thinking about how to move and what to use situationally to your advantage. Part of that planning includes reducing shots into the neighbors. Of course plans go well until they don't, but it's better to plan out and rehearse than just to go willy-nilly and assume you can make it up on the fly. Minuteman's airsoft suggestion is actually pretty awesome at highlighting deficiencies in your planning that you don't think of(like squeaky floorboards giving away your position, or how to use your lighting options)

 

[Pinecone]

Point taken (which didn't escape me). But any watch- or clock-maker will tell you the same thing (springs take on a "set" when left compressed)....and, although we work with alot of them, we don't sell springs. Just sayin'.

We have discussed this in other threads.

Yes, they take a set. But with firearms springs it seems to be a one time thing. The compress slightly and then stay that way for a LONG time.

Not that they take a set, then another set, then another one. Just by being compressed.

And as I have said, I have left magazines fully loaded (not short loaded) for over 15 years (yes same mags, no unloading/reloading), and they are fine.

Now, they are not cheap mags, but ones with quality springs to start with.

 

[fred333]

Planning can mean identifying where to "stay put and let the bg come to you", as well as identifying the best ways/places to navigate your home if you do go searching.....For moving around stuff, rehearsing can get you thinking about how to move and what to use situationally to your advantage.

 

[RoadDawg]

Planning where in my house I will encounter a bad guy seems hugely impractical, and unlikely to work. One's best bet strategically is to stay put and let the bg come to you. But that is not something people usually do. If I hear a noise or the dog barks suspiciously, I go check it out. If you do plan to wait until the bg is in a particular location/position, work on the story you will tell the police, so it does not seem like you lured the bg into position so you could shoot him/her.

Not to call you out... But...
While this may seem logical... It is wrong.

Never "...work on a story to tell the Police." No matter how you think you may have it all figured out, it will be a lie if it did not happen that way. Good Detectives are trained to look for rehearsed statements. Once discovered, a lie will taint everything you've said. That will never bode well for everything else which is true.

And besides that... YOU DON'T NEED A "STORY". Not if you do what is your right to do and simply defend your home and family against an unlawful attack.

IF...
• You did not lure the attacker/s into your home.
• You DID take up a defensive position and present a lawful defense.

That is all the story you will need, and it would be the truth...

Who was it that said... "Oh what terrible webs we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

IF it happens... Do your best, defend your house, and then, tell it as it really happened.

 

[smokey]

Not to call you out... But...
While this may seem logical... It is wrong.

Never "...work on a story to tell the Police." No matter how you think you may have it all figured out, it will be a lie if it did not happen that way. Good Detectives are trained to look for rehearsed statements. Once discovered, a lie will taint everything you've said. That will never bode well for everything else which is true.

And besides that... YOU DON'T NEED A "STORY". Not if you do what is your right to do and simply defend your home and family against an unlawful attack.

IF...
• You did not lure the attacker/s into your home.
• You DID take up a defensive position and present a lawful defense.

That is all the story you will need, and it would be the truth...

Who was it that said... "Oh what terrible webs we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

IF it happens... Do your best, defend your house, and then, tell it as it really happened.

Yup. I'd ammend this to say your best defense is to say nothing and ask for your lawyer. Hopefully you've already found a lawyer that has experience with defensive shootings and have his or her number at the ready. The only things that are in your interest to tell police are where they should look to find evidence that can support you if you go to court. If the threat shot at you, it'll be important to tell the police where they may find shell casings before those shell casings blow away/ get stuck in someone's shoes/otherwise disappear. Aside from helping them find evidence, there's no self-interest in talking directly to the police.

There's really no self interest in saying something like, "I just shot someone" in your 911 call either. You can say things matter of fact in real time. "There is a man with a GSW to the chest at ______ street. There is no active threat at this time."

I'm not a lawyer or anything, but from a variety of reading on the subject and talking to lawyers, this seems like the best course of action to take following a shooting. Some may also suggest using the "chest pains" strategy to go to the hospital and give yourself time to gather your thoughts before dealing with the police.

 

[Winchester]

Yup. I'd ammend this to say your best defense is to say nothing and ask for your lawyer. Hopefully you've already found a lawyer that has experience with defensive shootings and have his or her number at the ready. The only things that are in your interest to tell police are where they should look to find evidence that can support you if you go to court. If the threat shot at you, it'll be important to tell the police where they may find shell casings before those shell casings blow away/ get stuck in someone's shoes/otherwise disappear. Aside from helping them find evidence, there's no self-interest in talking directly to the police.

There's really no self interest in saying something like, "I just shot someone" in your 911 call either. You can say things matter of fact in real time. "There is a man with a GSW to the chest at ______ street. There is no active threat at this time."

I'm not a lawyer or anything, but from a variety of reading on the subject and talking to lawyers, this seems like the best course of action to take following a shooting. Some may also suggest using the "chest pains" strategy to go to the hospital and give yourself time to gather your thoughts before dealing with the police.

I used to live in Oklahoma and I can say the proposition of defending my home/family/property with a firearm in Maryland is A LOT scarier. I wouldn't be surprised if the police in OK now show up with a complimentary box of Omaha Steaks and a prepaid gas card as a thank you gift. Great points to consider on this thread. I appreciate all of the logic here.

 

[danb]

Not to call you out... But...
While this may seem logical... It is wrong.

Never "...work on a story to tell the Police." No matter how you think you may have it all figured out, it will be a lie if it did not happen that way. Good Detectives are trained to look for rehearsed statements. Once discovered, a lie will taint everything you've said. That will never bode well for everything else which is true.

And besides that... YOU DON'T NEED A "STORY". Not if you do what is your right to do and simply defend your home and family against an unlawful attack.

IF...
• You did not lure the attacker/s into your home.
• You DID take up a defensive position and present a lawful defense.

That is all the story you will need, and it would be the truth...

Who was it that said... "Oh what terrible webs we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

IF it happens... Do your best, defend your house, and then, tell it as it really happened.

I 150% agree. I was being sarcastic about "working on a story" for all the reasons you mention. Planning is great, but the odds of something going according to plan are 0.00%. My only point was that taking up a defensive position is an excellent idea, but you have to know what that noise is before you go investigate and walk into something. Plus, it does not cover a very likely scenario: you come home and someone is already there.

 

[RoadDawg]

Yup. I'd ammend this to say your best defense is to say nothing and ask for your lawyer. Hopefully you've already found a lawyer that has experience with defensive shootings and have his or her number at the ready. The only things that are in your interest to tell police are where they should look to find evidence that can support you if you go to court. If the threat shot at you, it'll be important to tell the police where they may find shell casings before those shell casings blow away/ get stuck in someone's shoes/otherwise disappear. Aside from helping them find evidence, there's no self-interest in talking directly to the police.

There's really no self interest in saying something like, "I just shot someone" in your 911 call either. You can say things matter of fact in real time. "There is a man with a GSW to the chest at ______ street. There is no active threat at this time."

I'm not a lawyer or anything, but from a variety of reading on the subject and talking to lawyers, this seems like the best course of action to take following a shooting. Some may also suggest using the "chest pains" strategy to go to the hospital and give yourself time to gather your thoughts before dealing with the police.

He came in and attacked. We defended ourselves. Keep it basic to get the report down... Ask to have your attorney present. But TELL THE TRUTH.

 

[RoadDawg]

I 150% agree. I was being sarcastic about "working on a story" for all the reasons you mention. Planning is great, but the odds of something going according to plan are 0.00%. My only point was that taking up a defensive position is an excellent idea, but you have to know what that noise is before you go investigate and walk into something. Plus, it does not cover a very likely scenario: you come home and someone is already there.

We do that thing around here... But not everyone catches it that way without the emoji. So I responded in an effort to keep some poor mope from thinking it was good solid advice from MDS. And we just know that somebody would.

 

[Mark75H]

He came in and attacked. We defended ourselves. Keep it basic to get the report down... Ask to have your attorney present. But TELL THE TRUTH.

The experts at the seminars I have attended suggest giving first responders the info they need to be certain the scene is safe for themselves and others. Like RoadDawg says basics; who you are, why you were there and just the basics of what happened.

Anything beyond that is probably going to be asked by an "investigator" "detective" or prosecutor/assistant. These are the people you do not want to talk to without qualified professional representation.

 

[lsw]

I know the mag spring issue is getting off topic, but consider that the springs have a fair degree of compression even in an unloaded magazine. So should we disassemble magazines before storing?

 

[alucard0822]

A plan for the aftermath of a defensive shooting is one of the most important, and most overlooked parts of arming yourself for self defense. Plenty of retainer/insurance plans, lawyers and legal firms that can help, best to look into them now.

As far as "working on your story", telling the truth etc. The police are there to secure the area, oversee medical assistance, investigate crimes and apprehend suspects, they are not your friend, they are not there to lend support or a shoulder to cry on, they will lie to you, if they suspect you of wrongdoing, you will not talk yourself out of an arrest, but can easily talk yourself into trouble. You do not work on a story, that is a job for your lawyer afterwards, you do not lie, but also do not answer any questions that are not a necessity. As RD said, police know when a person sounds like they have rehearsed what to say, and IMO it is in your best interest for that to be the case. You are not giving a statement or details at the time, only giving the minimum critical information needed then and there.

Just about all reputable instructors and attorneys will provide info similar to the following, good advice IMO.

Sean Maloney, Defense Attorney

As an American citizen, you have the legal and moral right to defend yourself and your family against death or grievous bodily harm. But even if you act properly, it is possible that you will find yourself in trouble with the law. What you do and say in the minutes following an act of self defense can mean the difference between freedom and imprisonment.

No matter how prepared you think you might be to defend yourself, a life or death situation is like nothing you have ever experienced.

Your body will release a massive dose of adrenaline to give you the strength and willpower to fight and survive. But like any chemical, it also has negative side effects, including time distortion, tunnel vision, hearing loss, and emotional detachment.

Even after you survive an attack, your body and mind will suffer from the effects of this dose of adrenaline for hours. You can experience nausea and vomiting, exhaustion, and the urge to pace, yell, or babble rapidly.

The bottom line is this: in the minutes and hours after using your firearm to defend yourself, your body and mind will work against you. You will be unable to remember or describe what happened accurately. You will do things you would not ordinarily do and say things you do not mean to say.

And unfortunately, this is the same time you will deal with law enforcement. This is the time when you are likely to say or do something that can set the tone for the investigation that follows.

That's why it is critical that you know what to say and do (and what NOT to say and do) immediately following a self defense shooting.

Before you do anything, just STOP!

You need to call 911 promptly. However, before you call, take a moment to calm yourself. Breath slowly and deeply. Collect your thoughts as best you can.

The moment you are connected to 911, a recorder will start and capture every word you say. This is the beginning of the police investigation.

While the 911 operator might be a nice person, he or she is not your friend at this moment. Operators are trained to keep you on the phone and prompt you to answer as many questions as possible.

Given your state of mind, you should be careful. While you must provide basic information to bring medical help and law enforcement, the less you say right now, the better.

Replay in your mind the exact sequence of events. Try to recall what made you believe that you were faced with an imminent threat. When you feel that you're ready, make the call.

Call 911.

Remember, you are being recorded and this is not the time to give details about what just happened. Your goal is to notify the authorities and bring an ambulance.

Here is the information you should share with the 911 operator:
Your name
Street address
What happened
Request for ambulance and police
Your location at the address
Description of yourself


So your phone call would go like this:

Operator: 911. What is your emergency?

You: Operator, my name is <your name>. I'm at <street address>. I was attacked and feared for my life. There has been a shooting. Send an ambulance and the police. I'll be <your location at the address>. I'm <physical description> and I'm wearing <description of your clothing>.

Let's say you're a white man with a wife and two kids. The call would sound like this:

Operator, my name is Sam Smith. I'm at my home at 123 Main Street. I was attacked and feared for my life. There has been a shooting. Send an ambulance and police. I'll be standing at the front door with my wife. My children have gone next door to our neighbor's home. I'm a white male, 6 feet tall with glasses and brown hair. I'm wearing blue jeans and a green t-shirt.

End the call. The operator may need you to repeat the address or other information. But you should avoid providing any details. Explain that you are upset and feel sick and that you need to hang up.

Note: when the police arrive, do not have the gun in your hand unless you are subduing your attacker. Be prepared to identify yourself and surrender your firearm immediately. You do not want law enforcement to mistake you for the attacker.

For Members: Call the Second Call Defense Emergency Legal Hotline.

This is a member-only number manned by a staff attorney 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Call this number only if you have recently used a gun in self defense.

You will be asked to provide your name, phone number, and Member ID Number. This will help us access your emergency contacts and other information we have on file.

Explain what happened. The Second Call Defense Attorney will provide a refresher on how to interact with police. If necessary, the attorney could speak with police on the scene.

In most cases, you will need to speak to the police yourself. Keep it as short as possible. Here is what you should say to police:
Officer, this person attacked me.
I will sign the complaint.
Here is the evidence (whatever tool the assailant used to attack you).
These are the witnesses (if there are any).
You will have my full cooperation within 24 hours after I meet with my attorney. Until then, I wish to assert my 5th Amendment right and remain silent.


Every self defense situation is different. It is impossible to predict how local authorities will react to your particular situation. However, you should mentally and emotionally prepare to be arrested and taken to jail.

In some jurisdictions, the police will arrest anyone who shoots another person regardless of the circumstances. So don't be surprised or alarmed if this happens.

Once a police officer makes the decision to arrest you, there is nothing you can say to avoid going to jail. Don't argue. Don't try to plead your case. Just SHUT UP! Cooperate fully with all police commands, but say nothing more about the attack.

 

[fred333]

Yup. I'd ammend this to say your best defense is to say nothing and ask for your lawyer. Hopefully you've already found a lawyer that has experience with defensive shootings and have his or her number at the ready. The only things that are in your interest to tell police are where they should look to find evidence that can support you if you go to court. If the threat shot at you, it'll be important to tell the police where they may find shell casings before those shell casings blow away/ get stuck in someone's shoes/otherwise disappear. Aside from helping them find evidence, there's no self-interest in talking directly to the police.
There's really no self interest in saying something like, "I just shot someone" in your 911 call either. You can say things matter of fact in real time. "There is a man with a GSW to the chest at ______ street. There is no active threat at this time."
I'm not a lawyer or anything, but from a variety of reading on the subject and talking to lawyers, this seems like the best course of action to take following a shooting. Some may also suggest using the "chest pains" strategy to go to the hospital and give yourself time to gather your thoughts before dealing with the police.

Can I amend your amendment?
Presuming you were legally justified in using lethal force to defend yourself (or another in your charge), I would tell LE that, "He attacked me and I was in fear for my life. I want that guy arrested and I will sign the complaint". Then, identify any evidence (e.g., attacker's knife, spent casings, injuries on your body, etc.) and/or witnesses. The last thing you need is for (out-of-town) witnesses to leave the scene or for LE or passers-by to pick up and walk away with potentially exculpatory evidence. Then, explain that, "Due to the gravity of what just happened to me, I need to speak with my attorney, after which I will give you my full cooperation." Then, shut up and say nothing to anyone except your lawyer.
Oh, and remember that 911 calls're recorded from the second their phone goes off-hook (i.e., the line is connected) and anything you say to 911 can and will be used against you. But the contrary's also true. So, if it's possible to ring 911 before or during the attack, make sure you tell the attacker you've got 911 on the line, the police are en route and, then, leave the line open so the entire incident gets recorded (and played back to the jury who'll decide your fate).

 

[Threeband]

I know the mag spring issue is getting off topic, but consider that the springs have a fair degree of compression even in an unloaded magazine. So should we disassemble magazines before storing?

Yes, and stretch them out to be sure.