HPRB October 20, 2015 Meeting

[montoya32]

Summary of #81181 (AKA LCPIWB): LCPIWB got the shaft.

A long story short-ER:
My case WAS to be reviewed today, however Juergen(sp?) read a decision after a long closed session that my case was already heard September 2014.

I will post the WHOLE story in a separate thread sometime this week or weekend now that my case has reached a dead end, but will give you the highlights on how I feel I got the shaft. I will also post in a separate thread all my supporting documentation so others can potentially benefit from my supporting documentation.

So the highlight reel.
A Wollard 365er. Had informal review. Requested a formal review via certified letter twice, nothing. It is true that I received a letter from the board stating that they reviewed my case July 17, 2014 and I was not invited or notified until after...So here is where the story takes a turn. I began attending the HPRB meetings in June of this year and brought up to the Chairman and Ms. Street that I was never given an opportunity to present any evidence, nor do I know what evidence was presented to them by MSP which is completely one-side. Via email with Ms. Street, and verbally with the Chairman at the next meeting in June. "We have not record of us reviewing your case".
Me, "So that means it has not been heard and I am intitled to a review/hearing."
Ms. Street via email "You will be scheduled and in the line up."
Fast forward to 9/10/2015, email from the chairman, "Submit your supporting documentation by 9/14/2015".
More follow-up emails, "please confirm my documentation was received."
Eventual reply "You case is scheduled for 10/20"...

The end result. You heard it read by Juergen, and probably had no idea what was actually presented. It was presented as if my "supporting evidence" was arguing I deserved a hearing and they said no....
But the truth is I supplied 12 email attachments because I was lead to believe my case was going to be reviewed.
If I was not going to be given a review, why the **** you going to jerk my chain, say you are going to schedule me, and ask me to provide supporting documentation. Then say that your review was already held when they could find no evidence of a hearing/review being heard previously.

In short my supporting documentation was that I was entitled to a permit like the Disabled Veteran issued a permit via HPRB overturning MSP decision.

Like I said I will post all my supporting documentation and timeline of events in a separate post hopefully later this week.
I do plan on submitting another application, and hope that it is denied, and request a formal review skipping and informal review. But maybe my case was strategically pushed out the backdoor because I was using a HPRB decision as a justification for issuance of my permit. This is why it is important we monitor and record these decisions.

Keep in mind that the board met behind closed doors and Knaub was advising them on your case. I do not like the fact that MSP is allowed in the private meetings of board and able to discuss cases without the applicant present.

 

[Abacab]

I need to come up with a well thought out argument to have my restrictions broadened. I doubt I could get them removed.

 

[montoya32]

I need to come up with a well thought out argument to have my restrictions broadened. I doubt I could get them removed.

Never know. What is the reason for your permit?

 

[Schipperke]

I'll give you the Readers Digest version as it is late and I was at work early this morning.

Meeting started ~20 mins late.

Three reviews and Montoya's hearing.

Two out of three they overturned MSP and the other I think they would have except that he was convicted in the late 90's of a misdemeanor in DC that after 10/1/13 makes him prohibited in MD. Total BS but they had no choice.


I think White is finally coming into her own, I heard her speak more during one case tonight than I have in totality of the other meetings. She voted to overturn in the two cases.

Good to see the last seat filled.


Met Schipperke and he's a regular Joe like the rest of us, it was my pleasure, sir.



The more I talk to Neverdun the more I like him.

I must be, I was chastised upon late arrival , "I've told you guys you can't come in late". First time I was ever there.

Nice to meet you as well..

Is the chairman a veteran or new to the board? If a veteran, it is conclusive evidence that until a crowd started to appear, these meeting were never held "by the numbers". Please, no spears, but I can tell you that boards and panels in my County are a hell of a lot more polished when it comes to Roberts Rules.

 

[Jaybeez]

the chairman's current 3 year term expires this coming march. does that answer your question?

 

[LoneRanger]

What folks will do to get a carry permit in Maryland......

 

[Stoveman]

What folks will do to get a carry permit in Maryland......

 

[montoya32]

What folks will do to get a carry permit in Maryland......

Funny, I didn't see you there. You have a very unhealthy obsession with making worthless comments about a subject you have admitted you have zero interest in.

I have a very thick skin, but keep in mind there are others who are less experienced and very "green" to this whole process and to gun rights in Maryland. You participation and the manner in which you participate is doing ZERO to support the 2A community and if you claim to attend "2A Tuesday" in Annapolis, I want you to tell the supporters to their face that they are wasting their time. Let's see how that goes for you.

 

[AntiGun]

I want to add my overall impression of the process.

I met a few people but that wasn't my primary goal. We'll save that for another time.
I went mostly just to watch the dynamics of the board/group interaction.

You guys who are going on a regular basis are definitely serving a purpose(pay attention LoneRanger). It was interesting to see the board members shy away from even looking at the crowd. They really do feel your presence and act accordingly. They know the looking glass is on them. Comments from board members are moderated by your presence. I can imagine what the chair would say about many of those applications if no one was in attendance. That guy can't be gone soon enough. He does not belong there. The previous board meetings before the new appointees must have been a circlejerk. Hogan needs some credit for the new members. Hogan may have disappointed us in general with regards to 2A but he has made some steps. Knaub was an interesting character and I get some weird vibes from him. A strange combination of authority and contempt yet at the same time I think he has a tiny glimmer of empathy with the applicants. I saw it when he was talking to Tim. Like I said, a weird vibe. There are sympathetic board members whose hands are tied by the law. Good to know but it doesn't help in most cases. The problem with permits exists as strongly as ever and is in the hands of the governor, courts, and legislature BUT for those who do get to the HPRB, you attendees are like guardian angels keeping the process honest, open, and accountable. Thanks and maybe I'll get to a few more meetings to add my support.

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

I would like to comment on the PI who had an arrest and conviction for illegal carry of firearm in DC.

if I was him I would have made the argument. What was the equivelent crime/punishment for such crime in MD in 1996, not 2015..

That argument was made and shot down in Md. State Police v. McLean, 197 Md. App. 430, 14 A.3d 658 (2011). Court of Special Appeals said its the penalty at the time you are applying/renewing your license not the penalty at the time you were convicted. Don't agree with it, but there you are.

 

[LoneRanger]

Funny, I didn't see you there. You have a very unhealthy obsession with making worthless comments about a subject you have admitted you have zero interest in.

I have a very thick skin, but keep in mind there are others who are less experienced and very "green" to this whole process and to gun rights in Maryland. You participation and the manner in which you participate is doing ZERO to support the 2A community and if you claim to attend "2A Tuesday" in Annapolis, I want you to tell the supporters to their face that they are wasting their time. Let's see how that goes for you.

Sounds like your skin is not as thick as you claim.

Nowhere have I ever said that folks attending 2a Tuesday are wasting their time. Quite the opposite, I believe that is an important part of the process towards making Maryland a true shall issue state.....our legislators, by their actions, are the ones letting us know we are wasting our time.........

I do believe that intimidating the HPRB by a a few Marylander's is going to eventually come back to bite ALL Maryland gun owners in the butt. Probably before Hogan's 1 term is up...the apply/deny/appeal method of securing a CCW will most certainly be short lived and I think the next administration will make it a point to make sure permits issued under that scenario do not get renewed.......

and I have no problem saying that to your face........

 

[montoya32]

Sounds like your skin is not as thick as you claim.

Nowhere have I ever said that folks attending 2a Tuesday are wasting their time. Quite the opposite, I believe that is an important part of the process towards making Maryland a true shall issue state.....our legislators, by their actions, are the ones letting us know we are wasting our time.........

I do believe that intimidating the HPRB by a a few Marylander's is going to eventually come back to bite ALL Maryland gun owners in the butt. Probably before Hogan's 1 term is up...the apply/deny/appeal method of securing a CCW will most certainly be short lived and I think the next administration will make it a point to make sure permits issued under that scenario do not get renewed.......

and I have no problem saying that to your face........

Care to point out where you dug that tidbit out of? Who is intimidating anyone?

 

[DC-W]

HPRB = Meeting open to the public.

 

[usa259]

Sorry, I'm way behind trying to catch up:

2A Tuesday? What and Where?
HPRB?

 

[AntiGun]

LR: Accountability by openness is not intimidation in the way that you imply it. The board members knowing that they are open to public scrutiny is a far cry from intimidation. By your definition of intimidation then simply telling a person in elected office that you will not vote for them would be intimidation. Let's just throw accountability to the wind for fear of making people uncomfortable.

 

[LoneRanger]

Appears I struck a nerve.........

 

[Schipperke]

I want to add my overall impression of the process.

I met a few people but that wasn't my primary goal. We'll save that for another time.
I went mostly just to watch the dynamics of the board/group interaction.

You guys who are going on a regular basis are definitely serving a purpose(pay attention LoneRanger). It was interesting to see the board members shy away from even looking at the crowd. They really do feel your presence and act accordingly. They know the looking glass is on them. Comments from board members are moderated by your presence. I can imagine what the chair would say about many of those applications if no one was in attendance. That guy can't be gone soon enough. He does not belong there. The previous board meetings before the new appointees must have been a circlejerk. Hogan needs some credit for the new members. Hogan may have disappointed us in general with regards to 2A but he has made some steps. Knaub was an interesting character and I get some weird vibes from him. A strange combination of authority and contempt yet at the same time I think he has a tiny glimmer of empathy with the applicants. I saw it when he was talking to Tim. Like I said, a weird vibe. There are sympathetic board members whose hands are tied by the law. Good to know but it doesn't help in most cases. The problem with permits exists as strongly as ever and is in the hands of the governor, courts, and legislature BUT for those who do get to the HPRB, you attendees are like guardian angels keeping the process honest, open, and accountable. Thanks and maybe I'll get to a few more meetings to add my support.

First time as well, nice synopsis. As far as Knaub, it just comes down to (imo) it's very hard to "give up power." MSP hold the keys to the golden goose and Knaub just gets defensive when a panel has the power to over turn him. I don't blame him, he is after all being told he is wrong and no one likes that.

With the exception of Man sitting in the middle (the chairman?) Chair #1, #4 (Looking from gallery L to R) seemed fairly "shall issue-ish" if they had that power. The lady in chair #2 , voted to lift restrictions on someone, the #3 said no (was out voted). Lady in chair #5 came late so no real read.

Being that most on the panel don't appear "anti-carry", I don't see the "everyone strap on some iron" crowd really bothers them. So as far as to the letter procedure, Roberts Rules and all, I'd be gentle there as it is not too material to getting a favorable ruling.

 

[DC-W]

First time as well, nice synopsis. As far as Knaub, it just comes down to (imo) it's very hard to "give up power." MSP hold the keys to the golden goose and Knaub just gets defensive when a panel has the power to over turn him. I don't blame him, he is after all being told he is wrong and no one likes that.

With the exception of Man sitting in the middle (the chairman?) Chair #1, #4 (Looking from gallery L to R) seemed fairly "shall issue-ish" if they had that power. The lady in chair #2 , voted to lift restrictions on someone, the #3 said no (was out voted). Lady in chair #5 came late so no real read.

Being that most on the panel don't appear "anti-carry", I don't see the "everyone strap on some iron" crowd really bothers them. So as far as to the letter procedure, Roberts Rules and all, I'd be gentle there as it is not too material to getting a favorable ruling.

The Chair just looks done with this.

His sudden shortness of breath and long pause midway through the meeting was very concerning to me. I honestly hope he's alright.

 

[NYRangers917]

Sorry, I'm way behind trying to catch up:

2A Tuesday? What and Where?
HPRB?

I second that. Trying to get active in the gun rights scene. Googled to no avail as to future pro gun events and such. Anyone know of any?

 

[Straightshooter]

2A Tuesday is a gathering on Annapolis in February. HPRB is the handgun permit review board.

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