Shooting with Night Vision? NGVs or NV scope? IR lasers?

[zoostation]

Gen. I will work for relatively simple night hunting or home security purposes. Just be prepared to have a good illuminator, it will often need it. My company brokers a lot of NV commercially and we sell a ton of traditional Gen. I scopes down in Texas and the mid-south to dealers who have a lot of hog hunter customers. They love it. And you should see the banks of IR illuminators some of these guys build.

Gen. 2 is where you'll notice the biggest improvement to the naked eye. The difference is Gen. 2 and above scopes add a micro-channel plate inside the image-intensifier tube that further charges the existing light. Instead of existing light being magnified 2,000-3,00 times as it is with Gen. 1 it is now being magnified 20,000+ times. However the difference in price is going to be significant. Even a very basic 2x Gen. 2 scope is going to sell for $1200 or more, around three times the cost of a similar scope in Gen. 1.

Thermals are getting more popular as their prices become at least attainable for many, though I don't think they'll be down to a few hundred dollars in a few years (nice thought though ). I haven't seen the prices really sink much, if any, on them in the past few years, though the offerings are way expanding. Plus thermals don't use tubes, they're all electronic and use a sensor cell that feeds into a processor and spits out the image you see through the eyepiece on a mini-monitor.

I really think digital night vision will take off in the next few years. Like thermal it also doesn't require a tube or have traditional glass-to-glass light transmission, is all electronic, is relatively cheaper to make than many NV units, doesn't fry in daylight, and shows color (which tends to fade to B&W as light dims). It is a technology still in its infancy and mainly used in low-end monoculars right now, but I would expect to see it improve a lot and a lot more digital NV scopes hit the market in the near future and the next couple of years.

 

[Slimjim]

you're forgetting all the R&D that goes into each different sight. You can't just slap various parts together and it'll work, no questions asked. Odds are for a $5k weapon sight, easily 2,000+ man-hours were spent on R&D and testing (although that's probably a good bit lower than the actual number).

Of course there's also the biggest factor of all.....supply and demand.

If they continue selling their product at the price they're asking, they'll continue asking that price. If sales drop, odds are prices will do the same accordingly.

Rumor has it FLIR will be introducing a consumer level thermal scope with the name "Razorback" at SHOT this year. Especially after the success of the bare bone Scout PS series units that brought thermal monoculars into the extremely affordable range of 18-2000.00 With the amount of hog hunters wanting to buy thermal units, you're going to see an affordable weapons mounted unit this year or next.

Also, don't discount the availability of used thermal equipment, there are a bunch of Elcan specterIR's on the used market for 4500.

 

[Dogabutila]

Guys,

I see that Night vision (NV) scopes have really come down in price and Gen I is under $500. This is getting into an area were it is affordable to the average shooter. Since most night shooting is done with rifles, I put this thread in the rifle forum but I don't see anything that would not allow it with MGs or Pistols or even black powder muzzle loaders! All are welcome!

Does anyone have any experience with night shoots? I am not talking about one guy out in the woods by himself but the idea of having "shoot" at a range in the dark with a dozen people with NV scopes or Night Vision goggles (NVGs). What problems did you run into and how were they solved?

Problems I see,
1. If using NV scopes, how to see when not looking down the scope? Obviously your rifle and so your scope must remain pointed down range. So how do you reload...etc.?
2. How do you get someone to be able to RO? Would that require the RO to have NVGs?
3. Did you have a problem seeing where you were hitting?
4. With some using NVGs, did people have a problem using the rifles or did they pretty much have to use IR lasers to aim?
5. What targets did you use to be able to tell if you were hitting them?

Anyway, just looking for general info if anyone has any experience in this area... I have always loved the idea of NV scopes and goggles but its hard to justify the money if I can't use them... however if I can figure out a good way to use them...

P.S. I would assume tracers are off the table unless someone figures out how to keep fires from starting in the woods...

I've done a bit of it.
1) Unless it is absolutely pitch black your eyes should still have some vision. This and practice. Muscle memory.

2) Our RO had NVG.

3) No, only when missing.

4) IR lasers were plentiful. Night vision scopes were not as popular. Some people had NV capable optics like Eotechs or aimpoints, however they were a little bit awkward for some people sometimes because they may have to be mounted farther up than people are used to.

5) AR500 or some sort of steel.



PVS14's with lasers seem to be the best option right now in my experience.

 

[Norton]

We've got a bunch of night vision threads up and running, but this one is the biggest one that is most current and closest to the topic, so I'll bump it up.

So, another member and I are discussing getting set up with a decent NV rig. By "decent" I mean something that is adequate for the average Joe. I'm not kicking doors, repelling from helicopters or hunting terrorists.

I want to have something adequate for using at the Undisclosed Location and perhaps bump in the night at home and in the event of the Zombie Apocalypse ().

I have one of the Zeiss Orion scopes now. Good bang for the buck, works as advertised within its design parameters.

Trouble is that it is BIG and clunky to me and while it works well for using as a spotting scope/telescope NV device, it's not practical for a weapon mounted NV on a carbine, let alone a head mounted rig. (with that fantastic endorsement, I'll likely be selling it soon if anyone is interested )

Now, to my novice sensibilities, it looks like there are four ways of accomplishing a NV set up. Again, these are just observational comments and not me pretending to be an expert in any way, shape or form. Consider them questions, more or less.

For now, I'd like us to just talk about big picture principles of setting up a rig more so than the specifics of the equipment in terms of brand, etc.

I'd really like to hear from people who have worked extensively with NV in terms of use when it mattered. I know there are widely varying opinions in the way that training is administered.

1. Head mounted

Advantages -

not tied to the rifle to see,
can be used with a handgun,
don't have to point the firearm at something in order to see it.
Definite safety plus if you're talking about needing to identify friend/foe with the likelihood of what you're looking at as being "friend".​

Disadvantages -

more "stuff" to haul around.
Looking like some sort of "operator" wannabe/being very obvious.
Need laser aiming to shoot accurately?
Clunky for "bump in the night" because you have to suit up to use it.​

2. NV device without aiming point, mounted on rifle in front of existing optic

Advantages -

"plug and play",
put it on the rail and let the existing optic be your guide for aiming purposes, lower profile in terms of using it...less Ninja factor,
less crap to haul around,
easier to deal with for bump in the night.
sighting of rifle in terms of eye relief remains consistent because you are using existing optic prior to the night vision​

Disadvantages-

have to aim the rifle for identification purposes.
Big downside for most of us where the friend/foe scale slides towards "friend",
durability of the moderately priced scopes when mounted to the rifle​

3. NV device without aiming point, mounted on rifle behind existing optic

Advantages -

pretty much plug and play
lower profile than head mounted
less gear to haul around
use existing aiming point​

Disadvantages -

have to aim the rifle for identification purposes.
Big downside for most of us where the friend/foe scale slides towards "friend",
durability of the moderately priced scopes when mounted to the rifle
tied to an optic that can be mount far forward on the rail
eye relief changes​

4. NV vision rifle scope with aiming point/reticle

Advantages

One thing mounted on rifle
lighter set up than #s 2 and 3 (OK, well except for when using the Zeiss/Hubble telescope pictured here which weighs as much as small SUV)​

Disadvantages

daytime use?
quality of glass more important
ability to zero repeatedly when taking on and off
less bang for the buck in terms of the NV quality​

 

[Norton]

OK...sorry that took so long, lots of formatting to do so it would be legible.

Have at it.

 

[Inigoes]

I have head mounted and rifle mounted NV. As you pointed out they have their pro's and con's...

The next step will be Thermal

 

[armed ferret]

head mounted, but not with that ridiculous looking thing. rips out your hair, gives you headaches, and is just generally awful. i've worn 'em plenty. they suck.

head mounted with a full helmet of some sort. for the budget-oriented, I wouldn't go less than an Ops Core Base Jump.

if you want a dedicated weapon platform, the M845 that TNVC has brought back is unbelievably difficult to beat. the G2 SHP in particular, as far as bang-for-buck goes. Under 2 grand, and incredibly close to gen 3 performance.

 

[MikeTF]

Post 44 is fantastic. It took some work. Very much appreciated. My interest is in using NV for hog hunting.

 

[Norton]

head mounted, but not with that ridiculous looking thing. rips out your hair, gives you headaches, and is just generally awful. i've worn 'em plenty. they suck.

I guess there's a reason they call them skull crushers.

head mounted with a full helmet of some sort. for the budget-oriented, I wouldn't go less than an Ops Core Base Jump.

if you want a dedicated weapon platform, the M845 that TNVC has brought back is unbelievably difficult to beat. the G2 SHP in particular, as far as bang-for-buck goes. Under 2 grand, and incredibly close to gen 3 performance.

Thanks, I saw that one from one of your other posts.

 

[Norton]

if you want a dedicated weapon platform, the M845 that TNVC has brought back is unbelievably difficult to beat. the G2 SHP in particular, as far as bang-for-buck goes. Under 2 grand, and incredibly close to gen 3 performance.

I guess my issue, being wishy washy like Charlie Brown, is that I like the idea of having the option using just the regular optics during the day and knowing that they are zeroed and will stay that way and then adding the NV to it in some manner.

To me, the #4 option is the least desirable for my situation, but I agree that the M845 looks like a great value.

 

[Norton]

armed_ferret or anyone else,

any thoughts on the clip ons that TNVC offers?

http://tnvc.com/shop/category/night-vision-clipons/

This one in particular looks like it's optimized for low magnification optics.

http://tnvc.com/shop/l3-anpvs-24-cnvd/

I guess these >could< be used as handhelds in most circumstances, no?

 

[Norton]

Post 44 is fantastic. It took some work. Very much appreciated. My interest is in using NV for hog hunting.

I live to serve.

 

[Ski169]

I was going with the ability to switch between head mounted and weapon mounted. Attached behind the Eotech is a TNPVS-14 from TNVC that I can also mount on my OpsCore Fast helmet with a Wilcox mount. Mounted toward the muzzle at the top is a Laser Devices DBAL I2 with IR and visible green laser. I figured the ability to switch between the mounting options would give the most useability.

 

[Norton]

I was going with the ability to switch between head mounted and weapon mounted. Attached behind the Eotech is a TNPVS-14 from TNVC that I can also mount on my OpsCore Fast helmet with a Wilcox mount. Mounted toward the muzzle at the top is a Laser Devices DBAL I2 with IR and visible green laser. I figured the ability to switch between the mounting options would give the most useability.

Nice set up that gives a lot of flexibility. Can that be mounted in front of an optic?

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Norton, I have little experience in this area as you can see since I started the thread.

From all I have gathered, I think I am leaning towards some type NVGs that can be quick mounted to my gun. I am planning on running it on a M16 with a Shrike upper. 90% of my shooting will be during the day. So I don't want a NVG setup that would hinder that. I am thinking some type of helmet mounted system that will quick detach and fit on a mount on the gun. Since I am pretty much only shooting at a range, this sounds like the way to go. I can wear it on the helmet until the line is hot. Then pop it off and mount it on the gun. While the IR laser seems like an ok option, its does not seem ideal for range use and I think might get boring quick. Ideally I would want the system to mount forward of the optics so I don't have to change my head position when using the NVG on the rifle.

The other problem I have seen is what optics do you want to use. I wanted to put an ACOG on my gun but that does not seem ideal for NVGs. Eotechs seem to rule this area. While I love Eotechs, I consider them more of a Subgun optics since there is no magnification. However you can get the Eotech and the Magnifier too. So many I will go that direction... I basically determined that I need to read more about and see some of this stuff in use before I start spending big money.

 

[Ski169]

The PVS-14 setup is capable of being mounted in front and behind multiple types of optics. Just for kicks, I temp mounted it on my M4 in front of the ACOG and it worked like a charm. However, I still have yet to fire anything with the tube installed. That was something else to take into consideration was if the NVD is capable of handling the recoil of whatever it is mounted to. Not every NVD can handle the recoil of 7.62 but are just fine on smaller caliber rifles like the 5.56.

 

[Norton]

I am leaning towards some type NVGs that can be quick mounted to my gun.

That would seem to be the best of both worlds.

The other problem I have seen is what optics do you want to use. I wanted to put an ACOG on my gun but that does not seem ideal for NVGs..

Hmm..I thought they'd be good to go. Not too crazy about the Eotech.

 

[Norton]

The PVS-14 setup is capable of being mounted in front and behind multiple types of optics. Just for kicks, I temp mounted it on my M4 in front of the ACOG and it worked like a charm. However, I still have yet to fire anything with the tube installed. That was something else to take into consideration was if the NVD is capable of handling the recoil of whatever it is mounted to. Not every NVD can handle the recoil of 7.62 but are just fine on smaller caliber rifles like the 5.56.

While I'm primarily interested in a 5.56 use, I definitely would be interested in being able to use it on larger calibers as well.

 

[Ski169]

While I'm primarily interested in a 5.56 use, I definitely would be interested in being able to use it on larger calibers as well.

Hence multi use in more ways than one. I'm still shopping for a SCAR 17 so I was interested in being able to transfer the tube to other platforms. I guess you never know so like the old saying goes, "better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it".

 

[armed ferret]

If you want something helmet-mounted that will quick-detach, the High Tech Redneck mount system is probably the best bet, paired with a PVS-14.

Link to mount

You're still on the hook for a PVS-14 though.