Some Things I like for an AR 9mm PCC

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  • alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,711
    PA
    I love AR9s, got deep into them a few years ago, have built and competed with a few, from Suppressed SBRs to 16" competition setups.

    I prefer dedicated receivers VS adapters, being a dedicated receiver probably costs the same or less than an adapter, and some have goofy control layouts. I like GLOCK over Colt pattern, the single point feeding of a GLOCK setup have many advantages with feed geometry vs a double stack with guide ramp.

    Forward assist is pointless, a pistol cal ejection port that is shorter/wider does help with gas to a minor degree, and can be more reliable than a long/skinny 5.56 port. A nice big gas deflector behind the port helps with gas even more.

    Blowback, especially short stroke is brutal to triggers, of course a loose primer can still cause a failure, as can a loose cartridge trigger, but I see the design as more of a tradeoff than a dealbreaker. I run Hiperfire PDI cartridges in some, Geissele GRF single stage in others. They have both proven 100% reliably in long stroke, the PDI is 100% reliable in short stroke, but the Geissele will fail to reset. Lots of people compete in PCC with the PDIs, and they hold up in that role as good or better than any other trigger, including mil-spec.

    Reliability and recoil often come down to the buffer and feed ramp/cone. I have run a LOT of buffer setups, and the 10oz KVP IMO is the simplest and best for the money, keeps recoil soft, simple and reliable. Solid buffers without floating weights suck, a buffer under 8oz sucks, heavy 308 springs can cause more issues than they help. I use a blitzkreig short stroke hydraulic in my competition setup, just slightly smoother than the 10oz KVP, but costs 3 times the price, and a lot more to go wrong. The new Maxim delayed blowback is awesome, but some have issues with charging it, it's new and unproven. I have probably 500 rounds through 3 of mine and it runs well, but haven't spent enough time with enough rounds and competitions / tac classes to trust it. The feed cone can make it jam and "turtle" rounds slamming into the flat face of the breech, or it can reliably feed HP defensive ammo, all depends on the dimentions. Macon Armory and Taccom feed ramps run very well.

    They can absolutely be an ideal Home defense weapon, and are superior to many. It's still a modern 9mm pistol round, which might lack the penetration and effectiveness of a 5.56 or 300BO rifle round, but it's not ineffective. Larger mags, easier to shoot fast, less flash/noise, it can be comparable to an AR in 5.56, and superior to a handgun IMO even if barrel lengths are the same. Of course PCCs are fun in competition and suppressed, but many advantages are due to the simple operation, and ability to shoot on a pistol rage, or practice with close range steel plates. I prefer my 300BO, and supers are more potent, but my wife, oldest kid, and a LOT of people I instruct at the range shoot my 9mm PCCs better, especially suppressed. I probably have double the round count on my PCCs vs my rifle cal ARs, and most of it is a close range on a handgun course, much more useful for home defense training than 100yd paper with a rifle.

    obligatory pic of a few of mine
    20230424_100450.jpg
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    50,078
    I love AR9s, got deep into them a few years ago, have built and competed with a few, from Suppressed SBRs to 16" competition setups.

    I prefer dedicated receivers VS adapters, being a dedicated receiver probably costs the same or less than an adapter, and some have goofy control layouts. I like GLOCK over Colt pattern, the single point feeding of a GLOCK setup have many advantages with feed geometry vs a double stack with guide ramp.

    Forward assist is pointless, a pistol cal ejection port that is shorter/wider does help with gas to a minor degree, and can be more reliable than a long/skinny 5.56 port. A nice big gas deflector behind the port helps with gas even more.

    Blowback, especially short stroke is brutal to triggers, of course a loose primer can still cause a failure, as can a loose cartridge trigger, but I see the design as more of a tradeoff than a dealbreaker. I run Hiperfire PDI cartridges in some, Geissele GRF single stage in others. They have both proven 100% reliably in long stroke, the PDI is 100% reliable in short stroke, but the Geissele will fail to reset. Lots of people compete in PCC with the PDIs, and they hold up in that role as good or better than any other trigger, including mil-spec.

    Reliability and recoil often come down to the buffer and feed ramp/cone. I have run a LOT of buffer setups, and the 10oz KVP IMO is the simplest and best for the money, keeps recoil soft, simple and reliable. Solid buffers without floating weights suck, a buffer under 8oz sucks, heavy 308 springs can cause more issues than they help. I use a blitzkreig short stroke hydraulic in my competition setup, just slightly smoother than the 10oz KVP, but costs 3 times the price, and a lot more to go wrong. The new Maxim delayed blowback is awesome, but some have issues with charging it, it's new and unproven. I have probably 500 rounds through 3 of mine and it runs well, but haven't spent enough time with enough rounds and competitions / tac classes to trust it. The feed cone can make it jam and "turtle" rounds slamming into the flat face of the breech, or it can reliably feed HP defensive ammo, all depends on the dimentions. Macon Armory and Taccom feed ramps run very well.

    They can absolutely be an ideal Home defense weapon, and are superior to many. It's still a modern 9mm pistol round, which might lack the penetration and effectiveness of a 5.56 or 300BO rifle round, but it's not ineffective. Larger mags, easier to shoot fast, less flash/noise, it can be comparable to an AR in 5.56, and superior to a handgun IMO even if barrel lengths are the same. Of course PCCs are fun in competition and suppressed, but many advantages are due to the simple operation, and ability to shoot on a pistol rage, or practice with close range steel plates. I prefer my 300BO, and supers are more potent, but my wife, oldest kid, and a LOT of people I instruct at the range shoot my 9mm PCCs better, especially suppressed. I probably have double the round count on my PCCs vs my rifle cal ARs, and most of it is a close range on a handgun course, much more useful for home defense training than 100yd paper with a rifle.

    obligatory pic of a few of mine View attachment 431987
    Well put!
     

    Bafflingbs

    Gozer the Destroyer
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 16, 2013
    4,616
    Calvert County
    No, I feel pretty good about what I said. It still does not turn it into a rifle round, I assure you. Penetration is still far reduced, and the BC will continue to be awful. Terminal effect will also not be much different from the extra fps. Velocity isn't everything. It's something, but it's not everything.
    Okay, I’m kinda wrong… :innocent0 But, these are the numbers out of a carbine, for each. Not too shabby, but, not quite rifle worthy. My train of thinking is that my (incoming) suppressor is rated for 9mm no restrictions, and 300blk subsonic. I haven’t found many rounds in subsonic 300blk, that can outperform that underwood round. My thoughts didn’t translate very well, into my argument.:facepalm:
    IMG_3222.png
     
    Last edited:

    Bafflingbs

    Gozer the Destroyer
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 16, 2013
    4,616
    Calvert County
    I love AR9s, got deep into them a few years ago, have built and competed with a few, from Suppressed SBRs to 16" competition setups.

    I prefer dedicated receivers VS adapters, being a dedicated receiver probably costs the same or less than an adapter, and some have goofy control layouts. I like GLOCK over Colt pattern, the single point feeding of a GLOCK setup have many advantages with feed geometry vs a double stack with guide ramp.

    Forward assist is pointless, a pistol cal ejection port that is shorter/wider does help with gas to a minor degree, and can be more reliable than a long/skinny 5.56 port. A nice big gas deflector behind the port helps with gas even more.

    Blowback, especially short stroke is brutal to triggers, of course a loose primer can still cause a failure, as can a loose cartridge trigger, but I see the design as more of a tradeoff than a dealbreaker. I run Hiperfire PDI cartridges in some, Geissele GRF single stage in others. They have both proven 100% reliably in long stroke, the PDI is 100% reliable in short stroke, but the Geissele will fail to reset. Lots of people compete in PCC with the PDIs, and they hold up in that role as good or better than any other trigger, including mil-spec.

    Reliability and recoil often come down to the buffer and feed ramp/cone. I have run a LOT of buffer setups, and the 10oz KVP IMO is the simplest and best for the money, keeps recoil soft, simple and reliable. Solid buffers without floating weights suck, a buffer under 8oz sucks, heavy 308 springs can cause more issues than they help. I use a blitzkreig short stroke hydraulic in my competition setup, just slightly smoother than the 10oz KVP, but costs 3 times the price, and a lot more to go wrong. The new Maxim delayed blowback is awesome, but some have issues with charging it, it's new and unproven. I have probably 500 rounds through 3 of mine and it runs well, but haven't spent enough time with enough rounds and competitions / tac classes to trust it. The feed cone can make it jam and "turtle" rounds slamming into the flat face of the breech, or it can reliably feed HP defensive ammo, all depends on the dimentions. Macon Armory and Taccom feed ramps run very well.

    They can absolutely be an ideal Home defense weapon, and are superior to many. It's still a modern 9mm pistol round, which might lack the penetration and effectiveness of a 5.56 or 300BO rifle round, but it's not ineffective. Larger mags, easier to shoot fast, less flash/noise, it can be comparable to an AR in 5.56, and superior to a handgun IMO even if barrel lengths are the same. Of course PCCs are fun in competition and suppressed, but many advantages are due to the simple operation, and ability to shoot on a pistol rage, or practice with close range steel plates. I prefer my 300BO, and supers are more potent, but my wife, oldest kid, and a LOT of people I instruct at the range shoot my 9mm PCCs better, especially suppressed. I probably have double the round count on my PCCs vs my rifle cal ARs, and most of it is a close range on a handgun course, much more useful for home defense training than 100yd paper with a rifle.

    obligatory pic of a few of mine View attachment 431987
    Sweet ass collection!
     

    ezracer

    Certified Gun Nut
    Jul 27, 2012
    4,879
    Behind enemy lines...
    I have Soo much 5.56 /.223 ammo that I'm torn. Being an older guy the lighter weight PCC's really appeal to me with their lighter weight ( ~5.5 lbs. ). I've gotten my STAG AR-3 down to about 6.8 lbs. by getting rid of the glass and using Halographic Red Dots. Then I think about the M1 Carbine of yesteryear which is/was really sweet. I'm torn.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    50,078
    I have Soo much 5.56 /.223 ammo that I'm torn. Being an older guy the lighter weight PCC's really appeal to me with their lighter weight ( ~5.5 lbs. ). I've gotten my STAG AR-3 down to about 6.8 lbs. by getting rid of the glass and using Halographic Red Dots. Then I think about the M1 Carbine of yesteryear which is/was really sweet. I'm torn.
    I love 9mm carbines for the reasons given above. I have four. Some are SBR'd and others are AR9 pistols(until I leave Merrland). They are a breeze to shoot and super reliable. My main HD gun is a suppressed AR9 pistol. Short and maneuverable.
     

    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,125
    Northern Virginia
    I have Soo much 5.56 /.223 ammo that I'm torn. Being an older guy the lighter weight PCC's really appeal to me with their lighter weight ( ~5.5 lbs. ). I've gotten my STAG AR-3 down to about 6.8 lbs. by getting rid of the glass and using Halographic Red Dots. Then I think about the M1 Carbine of yesteryear which is/was really sweet. I'm torn.
    One of my 3-gun rifles I built many years ago is super light, even with a Vortex 1-6x scope on it. If I ever get out to Peacemaker again and you're there I'll let you try it out.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,711
    PA
    I have Soo much 5.56 /.223 ammo that I'm torn. Being an older guy the lighter weight PCC's really appeal to me with their lighter weight ( ~5.5 lbs. ). I've gotten my STAG AR-3 down to about 6.8 lbs. by getting rid of the glass and using Halographic Red Dots. Then I think about the M1 Carbine of yesteryear which is/was really sweet. I'm torn.
    5.56 is easier to make lighter than blowback 9mm. Lightweight competition BCG and aluminum weights in the buffer, this one came in under 5# with a 16" faxon gunner barrel. Even with the Steiner 1-4 LPVO still under 6.5# unloaded, and ammo weighs close to the same as 9mm. My lightest 9mm PCC is the one pictured a couple posts back at 5.5# unloaded without optic, 8oz of hydraulic short stroke buffer, 14.5oz BCG and 5.25" barrel sleeved to 16" with an aluminum tube and CF handguard. The 5.56 has less recoil too, but can't shoot it on a pistol range, and much of the recoil reduction is in the comp making it obnoxious loud. Now with the lighter Maxim RDB buffer on some of them, you can save some weight and recoil compared to straight blowback.
    20190122_144808.jpg
     
    Last edited:

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    50,078
    Even this AR9 pistol sporting a 4" barrel and CMMG RDB system breaks the 5lb mark.

    rdb1.jpg
    rdb2.jpg
     

    ezracer

    Certified Gun Nut
    Jul 27, 2012
    4,879
    Behind enemy lines...
    This looks interesting to me. S&W M&P FPC ( Folding Pistol -caliber Carbine ). Cost MSRP $650.

    -16" barrel. 30" overall, 16.5" folded. Velocity @ 50 yrds 1400-1600fps.


    View attachment 431941
    The M&P FPC is new this year so I'll be checking out some of the reviews on it before I do anything. I will say, the price is right!! Alucard.....you have a nice collection. Looks like fun.
     

    calicojack

    American Sporting Rifle
    MDS Supporter
    May 29, 2018
    5,425
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    Based on comments so far:

    1. Hyperfire PDI - going to get one for the new PCC in post #1. Timney also makes a PCC trigger but I don't see much feedback from users.
    2. I went back to using an AR15 carbine spring instead of a 308 spring on the new PCC build. Comments here seem to support that as well.
    3. I put my KVP 10 oz. buffer in a drawer because I thought it was a solid (i.e. no floating weight) - but that sucker does have a floating weight in it! Just checked after reading the comments.

    Someone mentioned an M1 Carbine. I would LOVE to see an AR PCC in 30 Carbine!! Probably never happen though.
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,665
    MoCo
    Someone mentioned an M1 Carbine. I would LOVE to see an AR PCC in 30 Carbine!! Probably never happen though.

    Been done a million times. Not as popular now that the ammo is more expensive. Just do a search.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,711
    PA
    Based on comments so far:

    1. Hyperfire PDI - going to get one for the new PCC in post #1. Timney also makes a PCC trigger but I don't see much feedback from users.
    2. I went back to using an AR15 carbine spring instead of a 308 spring on the new PCC build. Comments here seem to support that as well.
    3. I put my KVP 10 oz. buffer in a drawer because I thought it was a solid (i.e. no floating weight) - but that sucker does have a floating weight in it! Just checked after reading the comments.

    Someone mentioned an M1 Carbine. I would LOVE to see an AR PCC in 30 Carbine!! Probably never happen though.
    The PDI is a great PCC trigger, has a bumper pad, runs in everything. It works with Talon selectors unlike hiperfire toggle action triggers. It has a 2# break and nice wide adjustable trigger shoe. Fast positive reset and nice clean break. It does have more travel and movement than some of my others, but it's smooth, and this is due to more sear engagement that solves hammer follow or failure to reset issues other triggers have in PCCs, especially short stroke and MPXs that are really rough on triggers.

    Heavier springs can make recoil feel lighter in some cases as the BCG doesn't bottom in the tube as hard. Problem is it doesn't do much for the bolt velocity, unlike added mass and delay mechanisms. You can end up with a fast bolt that feels OK, but jams and a dot bouncing all over the place. The 10oz with floating weights is good, you can try the short springs from DPMS pattern 308 carbines, or heavier AR15 springs like a springco blue or tubb flatwire, they might smooth recoil without adding too much pressure like an AR10 or springco orange.

    The KVP 10oz has 4 tungsten weights in it, for 6oz of cushioned floating mass and 4.5oz of steel body, more than just about all others except for blitzkreig where just about the whole buffer is floating mass. It feels better than most, and all the mass resistes blowback force unlike some more complicated designs that use springs and telescoping peices that uncouple the weight so much of the mass isn't resisting the initial bolt movement. It works in short stroke setups too. The softest recoiling blowback setup I have uses a 10oz KVP and wave spring short stroke cushion.
     

    davsco

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 21, 2010
    8,626
    Loudoun, VA
    Some things I prefer:

    2. Colt style mag. Glock mages are not made for an AR magwell!!! Colt style locks open on the last round without any added do-dads. Colt style mags use the normal manual of arms to insert and release the mag. I can get a 32 round mag from out of state. A 10 round is pictured.
    3. Slick side upper. I am not installing a forward assist that does nothing and adds weight.
    only loaded colt-style mags a few times, but that sucked including the unloading. at least imo, glock mags are way better, way easier to load and unload, several varieties available, always in good supply, etc etc.

    in theory, last round bolt lockback is nice but still quicker to proactively reload vs waiting to run dry if possible.

    i do like the slick side uppers, just cleaner, less stuff in the way.
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,665
    MoCo
    Colt/Uzi mags are double stack double feed just like an AR15. You just shove rounds downwards into the top. They can be stripper clip fed too (though I'm not sure such a thing exists. (Edit:mtlcafan was posting same time as me. Looks like loaders do exist.)) All same as an AR.

    Glock mags are double stack single feed. You have to do the whole push the upper round down and slide the new one in thing. Definitely slower.

    Who unloads mags manually? :)
     

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