Shooting at the Range (Rant)

[brianns]

Can I have an AMEN!?

Ahmen!

 

[minux]

Can I have an AMEN!?

Amen!

And, how about taking ownership with some sort of recognition, like a wave, when someone causes a near fender-bender?

 

[rbird7282]

"... only perfect practice makes perfect."

Vince Lombardi

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[rbird7282]

We will have to agree to disagree.

That aside, we sound like dicks/the Maryland General Assembly (but, I repeat myself) shitting on (likely) new shooters and saying they have no business exercising a right without training.

Nonsense. I sound nothing like those azzholes in the MGA. I’m not shitting on those guys and they’re not new shooters if they have that many pistols.
The fact remains that if they have lousy technique/fundamentals and they don’t change it, they will still suck no matter how much they shoot.
I don’t really care what they do as long as they are safe.
I’m still of the mindset that if I can’t hit what I intend to hit, it’s far less fun.


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[lazarus]

They had like, ten guns!

Yeah. I've run into a few like them. Fortunately, more seem to have an idea of what they are doing. But it isn't limited to a certain inner city stereotype for those who really have no clue what marksmanship is past "bad things comes out of end with hole in it".

I've been muzzled by old dudes at the range who wanted to examine a handgun I was shooting (thankfully it was mine, and I new it was clear/cleared and double checked before handing it over). Handed it to them pointed down range and they immediately turn and point it at me while examining it.

Or just having a hard time putting any rounds on a target at 7yds. That sort of thing. Now, maybe they came in to shooting at an old age. No judgement, I didn't own guns or start shooting until the advanced age of 32. But it still seems to me that maybe a remedial class or two might be in order if basic muzzle discipline is something they are barely aware of.

I can maybe blame lack of handgun accuracy on bad eyesight. Maybe. Then again, I can point shoot without bothering to look at the sights at all for an entire magazine and still get most rounds at least in to a 12x12 target at 7yds. And I know darned well I am far from an excellent pistol shot and have very little training past a couple buddies giving me pointers early on, watching some videos/reading articles, and practice. Heck, right before heading to greenridge to try my hand at buck hunting for a day (intended two days, forgot all my spare/hunting clothes at home, said screw it after one night and one day), I needed to make sure my DW 44 was on at 25yds with the H110/240gr XTP loads I was carrying (primary was my Howa in 6.5, but I figured if I had a close opportunity, I wanted to try my 44 magnum). Once the sights were dialed, from a rest I put 12 rounds into a small tissue box at 25 and off hand I put another 6 in to a larger tissue box at 25. I figured that was good enough to be confident on a deer at maybe 30-40yds, depending on the kind of rest I had. With irons.

And my latest range trip in heavy overcast, I put 24 rounds from my Cz50, which I DO carry, into a 4"x7" rectangle at 12yds not being particularly slow or super careful on my shooting. Tending to shoot a bit high, all shots were centered left/right on the bull, but all but one were at or above the bull, so up to 7" high. I can't complain much about that. Center mass POA means they are all in a lethal zone even past 12yds. And my limited longer distance shooting with my Cz50 says they tend to not go much higher than where the sights are at 12. At 25 I start getting rounds under the bull and the only time I've tried it at 50 (they are LITTLE sights) most were scattered at or below the bull. No shooting past 12 with my Cz50 on this trip, but I can still usually get 7-8 rounds out of an 8 round mag on a full sized torso target at 50 with careful shooting (but don't ask the actual score).

Shooting my G19, which I also carry, with fiberoptic sights on it, careful shooting was a 3" circle for 14 out of 15 rounds at 12yds. Rapid firing (still aiming, but shooting as fast as I could with actual aiming and not mag dumping. Probably 10 seconds for 15 rounds) that expanded it to about 5" circle for 12 out of 15 rounds at 12yds (the 3 fliers were still comfortably on the 12x12 target). I will fully admit, the times I've really tried to empty the mag down range as fast as I possibly could it's more like "most rounds" from a 15 round mag on a 12x12 target at 12yds (probably 2-3 still on the plywood, but not on the 12x12 target). That last one is as fast as recoil will allow me to be "probably back on target" with full concentration on recoil control and general pistol alignment and not caring one bit about the sights.

 

[outrider58]

I'll defer to Vince on achieving Perfection .

But the more interesting question :

Given a baseline of " medium acceptable competence " , would occasional mediocre quality practice do better or worse than no practice , to maintain or improve baseline competency ?

To add: It really isn't about perfection. It's about proper technique v poor technique. Mastering the fundamentals. It isn't magic.

 

[lazarus]

Nonsense. I sound nothing like those azzholes in the MGA. I’m not shitting on those guys and they’re not new shooters if they have that many pistols.
The fact remains that if they have lousy technique/fundamentals and they don’t change it, they will still suck no matter how much they shoot.
I don’t really care what they do as long as they are safe.
I’m still of the mindset that if I can’t hit what I intend to hit, it’s far less fun.


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Fully agree with you on all of that. I guess it can be fun for someone to just throw lead down range and scare the paper. But not fun for me. And "practicing" with no skill isn't building skill without training of some sort. Whether that is formal, pointers from someone, or just book learning and trying to implement. And also yeah, with 10 guns, there isn't much excuse to be that bad.

Hell, I had a guy shooting at the range that frankly worries me if he carries because of how ill health he seemed to be in. He couldn't put more than 3 rounds down range before he had to put his glock down and take a seat and breather for a minute or two (I chatted with him for a few, age and diabetes caught up with him). He was really annoyed that another member told him holster draws weren't allowed. "when'd that change?"

Well, the range rules are on the back of the covered pistol range and there aren't that many. Holster draws banned are mentioned on them last I checked. And membership reminders go out on things like range rules and no holster draws at least a few times a year. Only been a member a few years, but went with a buddy as a guest occasionally the few years before that. Holster draws have been banned for at least the 8 years I've been shooting...

But as shaky as he was trying to aim down range, he did at least still manage to get all of his shots on paper at the 5-7yds he had his target.*

* of note, I'd worry about him carrying (I am pretty sure I remember he mentioned he was practicing before his wear and carry class) more because of ND because his trigger discipline sucked and health, not because he couldn't shoot accurately enough. Finger on the trigger every time he went to pick up the pistol to aim down range and the shakes were enough I'd worry if he was actually drawing and had his finger on the trigger, he'd put a round into the ground, his leg, bystander, etc.

 

[ezracer]

They need to do a lot more "dry firing" at home to help with trigger control. Or not. Maybe they're just happy to spray.

 

[lazarus]

To add: It really isn't about perfection. It's about proper technique v poor technique. Mastering the fundamentals. It isn't magic.

Yeah. And if you have most of the fundamentals down, then yes practicing with them is absolutely better than no practice. But if you are practicing with no fundamentals and doing all the wrong things, you are training in bad things you should/would need to undo some day to actually improve.

The extreme example, if all you are doing is holding your pistol to the side and jerking the trigger as fast as possible, there isn't really anything you are or can improve on if that is all of your practice. I guess you are familiarizing yourself with the thing in your hand going "BANG" loud. But that is about it.

If you know how to use sights, are attempting to aim, are more or less holding the gun rightish, and taking some time to aim, then yeah, just doing that again and again and again is going to build in some base level of skill. That doesn't mean you won't have to unlearn things to then train in better technique into your muscle memory. But you are still going to max out your skill and muscle memory at a fairly low level of proficiency.

That is the worry for myself. I know my technique is fine. My skills are decent. But I am well aware my technique could be improved, and to do that, I probably need more formal instruction from a good instructor at this point. And that is also likely to take unlearning some of the "decent" technique I have. And that is going to take some real work to, to then actually continue increasing my skill through practice.

Because right now, is my overall skill improving through practice? Yes. But barely. Right now, I've mostly plateaued and practice is about maintaining the level of (pretty good) skill I do have.

On the other hand, with rifles, I know my from a supported shooting position skill and technique is very good (of course it could still be better). But my off hand/unsupported technique and skill can absolutely be improved. My technique is also decent, but my unsupported pistol technique is better than that of my off hand rifle shooting. But I do not practice off hand shooting very much, so even with the technique I do posses, my skill could be significantly improved by more practice. Pistol, the only time I shoot supported is zeroing sights. And I practice weak hand and one handed shooting sometimes too. As well as slow and fast firing.

Rifle unsupported? Most range trips I don't even do any shooting unsupported. Probably only one in three range trips do I do any off-hand shooting with a long gun. And then, usually not a ton. Maybe a mag from my AR-15 standing, unsupported. Or a box or 22lr from my 10/22 or a mag or two from my M1 carbine (I mean, sometimes other guns too, like I do practice with my Howa 6.5 grendel which I use for deer hunting off hand, but also probably not more than a box of ammo a year). It is something I really do need to work on to improve that.

 

[Biggfoot44]

because of how ill health he seemed to be in. He couldn't put more than 3 rounds down range.
before he had to and take a seat and breather for a minute or two

In his later years , my FIL had the COPD bad , he probably couldn't make it to 3 shots without at least bending over and leaning on his knees . But with his first shot , he could still make a first shot head shot on a weasel at 35 yds . ( Yes , I paced from the back porch to the chicken coop .)

 

[pbharvey]

0/15+

 

[lazarus]

In his later years , my FIL had the COPD bad , he probably couldn't make it to 3 shots without at least bending over and leaning on his knees . But with his first shot , he could still make a first shot head shot on a weasel at 35 yds . ( Yes , I paced from the back porch to the chicken coop .)

I mean, this guy was more like a head shot at arms reach maybe. Torso at maybe 10yds. It was more the violating firearms safe handling rules on top of the age and health conditions that would worry me