SBR and SRS ruling by MSP

[Mr H]

Remind me again when the Roster Board meets??

 

[erwos]

Remind me again when the Roster Board meets??

Supposedly yesterday, but no one confirmed if it did.

 

[clandestine]

I don't think its going to be legal for someone to send a NFA item to the roster board without ATF Approval unless paperwork is filed. They may not be legally able to receive one.

 

[fightinbluhen51]

I see this ruling as a good thing. It clarifies our position so that we can better fight it. Without it, we were in limbo and unable to do anything about the situation.

Remember: the best way to win in court is to lose fast. Consider this the first loss in the MD NFA fight.

The problem is...I don't see fighting for NFA items in court as being a winning proposition. I'm not sure we will find sympathetic judges willing to apply "common use" standard to NFA arms. It would be nice, but I don't see that happening.

IANAL but I think we are arguing over semantics when it comes to affected NFA items in MD. Effectively, as a result of the banned arms and/or features that fall under the Freedom Suppression Act of 2013, defeat those portion of the law, and well, bam, back to the way it was before. There is quintessentially no difference between the two fights; fighting for reinstatement of "common use arms" and then their "NFA cousins" will be won in the same breath.

I guess...but what do I really know?

 

[Ab_Normal]

So now it will be safe to visit baltimore city and the counties surrounding dc?

I feel so much better now.

 

[TNW]

You can read this one statement and pretty much get the gist of this entire thread.

What a lot of people are probably overlooking is that their AR-15 SBRs just got kiboshed.



What that means is that a weapon that is an "assault weapon" is not exempt from the bans under FSA2013 just because it's an SBR.

AR15s don't HAVE to be "copycats" to be classified as "assault weapons"...they are "assault weapons" PER SE, since they are on the MD list, and thus banned under FSA2013.

MSP doesn't reference this in the advisory because it's so obvious it doesn't merit mention. An AR15 is an AR15...regardless of barrel length. The only POSSIBLE argument one may have is if they make an SBR out of an HBAR Sporter, and now, as Clandestine points out, the law is so convoluted that a judge is likely to make the safe ruling and say, "No F-ing way". You want to be the test case, be my guest.

MDS's end-run around FSA2013 just got helmet-to-helmeted.

I think where some of the confusion comes in is with AR15s that are not assault weapon. My logic is:
Colt HBAR is not an ALG.
it may be SBR'd on a form one BUT
must be over 29 OAL
must only have one evil feature
Must not be a copycat

And I'm sure I'm forgetting something that I thought of earlier. So I think that SBRs that are post 10/1 non regulated/non ALGs would have to maintain a heavy barrel...

 

[rsj1231]

I think where some of the confusion comes in is with AR15s that are not assault weapon. My logic is:
Colt HBAR is not an ALG.
it may be SBR'd on a form one BUT
must be over 29 OAL
must only have one evil feature
Must not be a copycat

And I'm sure I'm forgetting something that I thought of earlier. So I think that SBRs that are post 10/1 non regulated/non ALGs would have to maintain a heavy barrel...

Remind me again, what are the evil features? Pistol grip, vertical forward grip.... flash hider? Also, OAL would be measured with the stock fully extended and includes the muzzle device?

 

[Inigoes]

Remind me again, what are the evil features? Pistol grip, vertical forward grip.... flash hider? Also, OAL would be measured with the stock fully extended and includes the muzzle device?

Flash hider
Folding Stock
Grenade/Flare Launcher

 

[rsj1231]

Flash hider
Folding Stock
Grenade/Flare Launcher

Thanks

 

[TNW]

Remind me again, what are the evil features? Pistol grip, vertical forward grip.... flash hider? Also, OAL would be measured with the stock fully extended and includes the muzzle device?

Only includes the muzzle device if pinned and welded if I recall. Or otherwise permanently attached.

 

[swinokur]

So I'm wondering the effective date of this advisory. retroactive back to Oct 1?

That seems a stretch.

 

[A1Uni]

I don't think its going to be legal for someone to send a NFA item to the roster board without ATF Approval unless paperwork is filed. They may not be legally able to receive one.

/\
THIS!

I suppose dealers could hand carry the NFA item to the Board, and be present while it was being inspected (e.g.-maintain possession) and then take it back.

Of course, fat chance the Review Board would let that happen.

 

[Hawkeye]

So...let me get this straight, in a summary from a common man, to a common man:

• IF, you plant to make an SBR/SBS from a handgun, it must be on the roster, and then it can be less than 26" but it still has to meat the feature test for copycats (which is no more than 1 evil feature of folding stock, flash suppressor, ect)

• 
  
  The bolded part above.... it shouldn't need to be on the roster unless it's going to be sold, correct? Right now you can manufacture handguns for personal use that aren't on the roster. You just can't sell them. The applicable piece of the advisory reads:
  
  

  Additionally, because PS 5-401(c) uses the definition of "handgun" from CR 4-201, a short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun must be approved by the Handgun Roster Board before it may be manufactured for distribution or sale, or sold or offered for sale in Maryland.

  
  I bolded the applicable bit.
  
  If I have an AR15 pistol that I bought as a pre-10/1 lower that I then legally manufactured into a pistol for personal use, I should be able to make it into an SBR myself as per the other requirements above (copycat test), correct? Or am I missing something there?

 

[Inigoes]

Thanks

Fails copy cat test:


Passes fail copy cat test:


Thankfully, all are grandfathered pre-10/1

 

[Mr H]

The bolded part above.... it shouldn't need to be on the roster unless it's going to be sold, correct? Right now you can manufacture handguns for personal use that aren't on the roster. You just can't sell them. The applicable piece of the advisory reads:



I bolded the applicable bit.

If I have an AR15 pistol that I bought as a pre-10/1 lower that I then legally manufactured into a pistol for personal use, I should be able to make it into an SBR myself as per the other requirements above (copycat test), correct? Or am I missing something there?

That's my thought as well.

Much of this is a tempest in a teapot... but it's still something to address long term

 

[clandestine]

/\
THIS!

I suppose dealers could hand carry the NFA item to the Board, and be present while it was being inspected (e.g.-maintain possession) and then take it back.

Of course, fat chance the Review Board would let that happen.

People are overlooking this BIG TIME.

Its a defacto NFA ban for SBR's and SBS's through a Form 4. I would say the same for AOW's.

 

[swinokur]

If MSP signed off before 10-1, would it still need to be on the roster when the completed Form 4 comes back from BATFE?

 

[A1Uni]

If MSP signed off before 10-1, would it still need to be on the roster when the completed Form 4 comes back from BATFE?

My thought is yes, since the dealer could not legally transfer it to you under the specifications created by MSP, unless they come out with a pre-October grandfather clause.

 

[fightinbluhen51]

If MSP signed off before 10-1, would it still need to be on the roster when the completed Form 4 comes back from BATFE?

My thought is yes, since the dealer could not legally transfer it to you under the specifications created by MSP.

YIKES! That's big. I'm sore there are LOTS of injuries in existence if this is the case.

Goes back to what I said above, beat the features and the banned arms stuff, and this issue goes away. I think Clandestine is right, this is a de-facto NFA ban.

 

[swinokur]

This needs to go to the AG ASAP IMO.