Referendum

[Haides]

Just out of curiosity, is anything going to referendum in 2014?

 

[lseries]

A loss means that:

1. There is now a state wide mandate to support gun control. Political capital to spend out the ass on looney tunes measures that will further trample our rights.

I can already hear the talk about the silent majority of Marylanders who support gun control.

2. Any litigation we would want to pursue against SB281 goes on hold.

3. When we finally do have the opportunity to sue, the courts can look to the fact that we lost a referendum on gun control and say "this is what the people want." It unquestionably will influence the case, and you had better believe that our AG, whoever he/she might be, will jump up and down on that point.

Agreed on all points. However, most importantly, constitutionally-guaranteed rights, gun or otherwise, are not subjec to popular vote. Period. Constitutions can be amended--and sometime should be--but not by popular vote. It's a bad idea to give the impression that we think differently.

Thus I'm glad there won't be a referendum.

 

[frogman68]

No referendum. REALLY good news. Unless some other industrious malcontents start circulating e-petitions anyway. Let's hope not.

Courts, yes. Targeted elections, yes. Referendum, no thank you.

well now that we ran from a fight , let's hope the GA doesn't go further. Hopefully they have not made the wrong decision . The libs might take this and run even more anti gun pols I don't think the DINO movement will be able to change MD enough to make a difference. Lets hope a "malcontent" does decide to fight this thru every available means. Wasnt Washington consider a malcontent?

 

[fabsroman]

THIS! Especially by the same liberals who voted those liberals into office.

Yeah, but the same liberals that voted those liberals into office might not have thought the people they voted into office would have done this. Have to wonder how many people voted for Obama thinking he would never attack the 2nd Amendment.

I will say that after reading tonight that there will be no push for a referendum, I think I am at my end on this fight. Just going to stock up on firearms at this point, make it here until my kids get through public school (if I can suffer it that long), and then move. I'll leave the rest of you guys to endure this life, because this just isn't about firearms for me, but a lot more. If the majority of Marylanders would actually support SB281, my feeling is that all is lost in this state. Just as we can find loopholes around SB281, I am pretty sure they could find some too around the Constitution, like taxing the crap out of ammo, requiring fingerprints and licensing for ammo, etc.

Yep, if we cannot trust in our fellow Marylanders to strike down this abhorrent law, good luck with taxes, education, and the myriad of other issues that do not revolve around the 2nd Amendment, and good luck to the 2nd Amendment too.

Yep, with us running from a referendum, I think I am finally done with this. Good luck to us all.

 

[Jim12]

Yeah, but the same liberals that voted those liberals into office might not have thought the people they voted into office would have done this. Have to wonder how many people voted for Obama thinking he would never attack the 2nd Amendment.

I will say that after reading tonight that there will be no push for a referendum, I think I am at my end on this fight. Just going to stock up on firearms at this point, make it here until my kids get through public school (if I can suffer it that long), and then move. I'll leave the rest of you guys to endure this life, because this just isn't about firearms for me, but a lot more. If the majority of Marylanders would actually support SB281, my feeling is that all is lost in this state. Just as we can find loopholes around SB281, I am pretty sure they could find some too around the Constitution, like taxing the crap out of ammo, requiring fingerprints and licensing for ammo, etc.

Yep, if we cannot trust in our fellow Marylanders to strike down this abhorrent law, good luck with taxes, education, and the myriad of other issues that do not revolve around the 2nd Amendment, and good luck to the 2nd Amendment too.

Yep, with us running from a referendum, I think I am finally done with this. Good luck to us all.

It's not running from a referendum. It's picking your battles wisely and not letting your rights be trampled by the confused and/or ignorant masses. Only gun owners know the details of SB281, or even care. The rest of Marylanders just want to be "safe," and get back to playing Angry Birds. Support the legal challenge, both financially and by speaking out as to why it's so important. Maybe you'll educate some folks and change some votes in 2014, too.

 

[teratos]

Yeah, but the same liberals that voted those liberals into office might not have thought the people they voted into office would have done this. Have to wonder how many people voted for Obama thinking he would never attack the 2nd Amendment.

I will say that after reading tonight that there will be no push for a referendum, I think I am at my end on this fight. Just going to stock up on firearms at this point, make it here until my kids get through public school (if I can suffer it that long), and then move. I'll leave the rest of you guys to endure this life, because this just isn't about firearms for me, but a lot more. If the majority of Marylanders would actually support SB281, my feeling is that all is lost in this state. Just as we can find loopholes around SB281, I am pretty sure they could find some too around the Constitution, like taxing the crap out of ammo, requiring fingerprints and licensing for ammo, etc.

Yep, if we cannot trust in our fellow Marylanders to strike down this abhorrent law, good luck with taxes, education, and the myriad of other issues that do not revolve around the 2nd Amendment, and good luck to the 2nd Amendment too.

Yep, with us running from a referendum, I think I am finally done with this. Good luck to us all.

How sad for all of us involved in this fight that you completely misunderstand the reasons behind not supporting a referendum. It's amazing to me that even when presented with the demographics of Maryland voters, stats on voter turnout etc. people still approach a referendum as something we can win. It's just delusional. Yes a referendum is a more "active" way of doing something. Going through the courts is passive in that we just sit back and watch. When you truly analyze it, we cannot win a referendum. Sure, it gives us more time to buy, but that step is not benign. We have 2A litigators, well known names, telling us that a loss can affect the outcome in the courts. There is only one good path.

MSI, AGC, and NRA have all agreed on this path independently. That should tell you something. Either all those groups are hacks, or they truly believe this is the best path.

 

[Haides]

I will say that after reading tonight that there will be no push for a referendum, I think I am at my end on this fight. Just going to stock up on firearms at this point, make it here until my kids get through public school (if I can suffer it that long), and then move. I'll leave the rest of you guys to endure this life, because this just isn't about firearms for me, but a lot more. If the majority of Marylanders would actually support SB281, my feeling is that all is lost in this state. Just as we can find loopholes around SB281, I am pretty sure they could find some too around the Constitution, like taxing the crap out of ammo, requiring fingerprints and licensing for ammo, etc.

Yep, if we cannot trust in our fellow Marylanders to strike down this abhorrent law, good luck with taxes, education, and the myriad of other issues that do not revolve around the 2nd Amendment, and good luck to the 2nd Amendment too.

Yep, with us running from a referendum, I think I am finally done with this. Good luck to us all.

If you're turning tail now, then I have to wonder how dedicated you were to this cause to begin with...

 

[Brooklyn]

How sad for all of us involved in this fight that you completely misunderstand the reasons behind not supporting a referendum. It's amazing to me that even when presented with the demographics of Maryland voters, stats on voter turnout etc. people still approach a referendum as something we can win. It's just delusional. Yes a referendum is a more "active" way of doing something. Going through the courts is passive in that we just sit back and watch. When you truly analyze it, we cannot win a referendum. Sure, it gives us more time to buy, but that step is not benign. We have 2A litigators, well known names, telling us that a loss can affect the outcome in the courts. There is only one good path.

MSI, AGC, and NRA have all agreed on this path independently. That should tell you something. Either all those groups are hacks, or they truly believe this is the best path.

Some want to fight. Others just want to win.

To win we must fight the battle we are in, not the battle we want to be in.

We have to change the MGA, is that not fight enough?

In any case I just heard ( on WCBM I think) that Pat Mcdonough (http://www.patmcdonough.org/ ) is still supporting referendum.

I think someone will try no matter what...

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Huh, you don't say. Hey IMBLITZVT, I want my full auto mag!

Just kidding, of course.

(But I'll gladly take it and let you shoot whatever of mine you want, if you like. )

Well, anytime you are ready come by one of our FA shooting events at the AGC and I will honor my lost bet! Now I did say a full mag... meaning 30 rounds in my Max11 (or 40 in the Max11/22). However if you come by when I have my Maxims out, we can work how long of a belt you get... However a full mag did not mean a full 250rd belt even if now they are the same according to MD Since you probably know teratos, come by with him and I will give you a mag each even if he did not take the bet. Since teratos does not want me to delete my posts, I will skip that part.

Damn, I have to say I am disappointed. I do understand why this is being done but disagree that it will turn out better. I have a feeling we will be talking years from now and we will still be missing the majority of what was lost to this bill. I certainly have a lot of buying between now and October... How many ARs does one need for kids you may have in the future, when you don't know how many you will have...

That said, I since the decision was made, of course I will fully back that path forward!

 

[bogus130]

You all must know something I don't. I've read through as much of this thread as I could but still can't grasp the same motivate as the people against referendum. My thoughts on the MSI email.
1. I agree. Big problem. Scary to see how the question will be asked.
2. Who cares if we don't get to take legal action till then. We lose 1.5 years? It'll probably take 20 (exaggeration) just to get them to make a decision. And I believe it is a complete crap shoot whether or not we get a decision in our favor. Another mass shooting is going to happen. It will all depends on when. That will persuade their decision just as much as a popular vote.
3. I doesn't matter whether we win by 100% or loose by 100% they will vote however they want to vote. It is the same with every other bill in this state. THEY DO NOT CARE!! We get SB281 repealed with referendum in November, another mass shooting occurs in Jan. and we will be back to the same old thing. They will pass stricter laws and will say that the referendum vote was before this most recent shooting and doesn't reflect the "new" opinion of the people.
4. I do agree with this. Sadly the courts will be persuaded on anything and everything now. I don't know how judges will be appointed but I doubt we will get a favorable judge. I see the courts as a crap shoot.
5. 6. and 8. So the argument is we don't have the votes and the resources to educate to get the votes. And that we won't be able to get the word out to vote against SB281. So...we will be able to get those 40% of non voters to register to vote, and to get them to register democrat, anddd to get them to vote for the correct delegate while getting other registered republicans to change from republican to democrat and vote for the correct person. That's a lot. You can be killing 2 birds with one stone here. Educate people on SB281, tell them to vote against SB281, while doing that continue on with DINO movement talk. Also, you are asking people to vote for a person based on 1 issue. While people on this website are very pro-2A, most probably aren't or care more about different issues. I see a lot of problems persuading voters to vote for someone based on gun control when that same politician has different views on issues more important to those voters (if that makes sense)
7. Hadn't really thought about that and definitely could be a problem.

Lastly, a lot of these points I have read repeatedly on MDS. PLEASE tell me that those people have contacted MSI and got their info FROM MSI and not MSI getting their information from this forum.
I am just trying to get on board with what is best for us. I am not a lawyer, politician or claim to be well informed about any of this but my thinking persuades me in one direction. I will put my faith in MSI and NRA in the direction they think is best. I would like to see some type of real plan of attack in order to see where this is actually going and why they believe it will actually work. Just saying lets look forward to 2014 and voting these people out is no plan of action.

 

[Boondock Saint]

There are a lot of MSI Executive Members on MDS. Some of us are board members or officers. We're known to post here from time to time.

Some of us are just shills that have been planted by the Brady Campaign, to tear MSI asunder from within.

 

[teratos]

Damn, I have to say I am disappointed. I do understand why this is being done but disagree that it will turn out better. I have a feeling we will be talking years from now and we will still be missing the majority of what was lost to this bill. I certainly have a lot of buying between now and October... How many ARs does one need for kids you may have in the future, when you don't know how many you will have...

I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I have 2 kids. I will have 8 AR's when all is said and done. 4 each. Don't be like those people on the Discovery Channel with the 19 kids. That's just too many AR's to buy.

 

[MDFF2008]

MSI will not be able to lead the DINO movement once we begin voter registration drives. People registering voters cannot advise the people on what party to register.

 

[Haides]

So who made the Freestate Dino's page?

Obviously the DINO movement will fall apart without some kind of unified effort to get behind certain candidates and keep the votes concentrated on them.

I half expect you guys to tell me that you're already way ahead of me and have some sort of top secret strategy worked out for this?

 

[bogus130]

I agree. I don't know anything but what I see/read here. I would assume a lot of things are going on behind the scene. But since we would only have till June to get signatures we would need to hear some type of game plan to be comfortable letting June pass without a referendum effort.

 

[fabsroman]

It's not running from a referendum. It's picking your battles wisely and not letting your rights be trampled by the confused and/or ignorant masses. Only gun owners know the details of SB281, or even care. The rest of Marylanders just want to be "safe," and get back to playing Angry Birds. Support the legal challenge, both financially and by speaking out as to why it's so important. Maybe you'll educate some folks and change some votes in 2014, too.

For me, it is NOT about the battle, but the war. If we really cannot get enough people to stand behind the 2nd Amendment in this state, then moving to another state that aligns more with my beliefs might be the better idea for me and my family in the long run. You guys might be completely right that a referendum cannot be won, but for me, the 2nd Amendment issue is just the tip of the iceberg about all the policy issues that are wrong in Maryland. Life I said, if we cannot win this on referendum, then I am afraid the State of Maryland is akin to the Titanic. We can only forestall the sinking by closing the flood doors and sacrificing a few people, until the ship goes down entirely. Sadly, just like the Titanic, it is going to take a while for most of the sheeple to see that the State of Maryland is doomed.

So, while I understand the reasoning behind not going the referendum route (e.g., the makeup of SCOTUS is somewhat favorable to us versus Obama getting to appoint another justice in the coming years, Maryland voters are generally liberals (which I somewhat disagree with on this issue), we lost ALL the referendums last election even though a couple were actually close, we do not get to frame the question, etc.).

Also, if we cannot win on referendum, what makes you think enough DINO's will come out to make a difference in the election results? It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I just hope I am not sitting here 4+ years from now after MOM's inauguration and SCOTUS ruling against us and saying "Told you so."

See, I also think that the assault weapon ban will be overturned by SCOTUS. Not too sure about the licensing and fingerprinting for handguns. So, while I feel like we might win on some of the issues in SB281, I don't think we will win on all of them. That is the part that really bothers the heck out of me, because with a referendum, we win on everything unless they bifurcated the issues and ask more than one question of the voters pertaining to the bill. Don't even know if that would be possible though.

 

[fabsroman]

Some want to fight. Others just want to win.

To win we must fight the battle we are in, not the battle we want to be in.

We have to change the MGA, is that not fight enough?

In any case I just heard ( on WCBM I think) that Pat Mcdonough (http://www.patmcdonough.org/ ) is still supporting referendum.

I think someone will try no matter what...

Yep, battle is the short term thinking on this mess. War is the long term thinking. I want to win the war, not just the battle. Won the initial battle on Woolard. Lost the next battle. If SCOTUS does not accept cert on the issue, then the WAR is lost on CCW. If SCOTUS rules against us on cert, then the WAR is lost. However, it sure felt good to win that initial battle now didn't it?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasons for not going forth with referendum. I also understand that a lot of people on here suffer from "battered gun owner syndrome". I just disagree with the reasons for not going the referendum route. My gut tells me that this is one we would most likely win because there are a lot of liberal gun owners out there.

Like most voters and people, I am not a one issue person. So, how the public stands on this matter, matters to me as far as staying or going. I would prefer to see how my fellow citizens feel about this before I decide on whether to abandon them for another state.

 

[fabsroman]

You all must know something I don't. I've read through as much of this thread as I could but still can't grasp the same motivate as the people against referendum. My thoughts on the MSI email.
1. I agree. Big problem. Scary to see how the question will be asked.
2. Who cares if we don't get to take legal action till then. We lose 1.5 years? It'll probably take 20 (exaggeration) just to get them to make a decision. And I believe it is a complete crap shoot whether or not we get a decision in our favor. Another mass shooting is going to happen. It will all depends on when. That will persuade their decision just as much as a popular vote.
3. I doesn't matter whether we win by 100% or loose by 100% they will vote however they want to vote. It is the same with every other bill in this state. THEY DO NOT CARE!! We get SB281 repealed with referendum in November, another mass shooting occurs in Jan. and we will be back to the same old thing. They will pass stricter laws and will say that the referendum vote was before this most recent shooting and doesn't reflect the "new" opinion of the people.
4. I do agree with this. Sadly the courts will be persuaded on anything and everything now. I don't know how judges will be appointed but I doubt we will get a favorable judge. I see the courts as a crap shoot.
5. 6. and 8. So the argument is we don't have the votes and the resources to educate to get the votes. And that we won't be able to get the word out to vote against SB281. So...we will be able to get those 40% of non voters to register to vote, and to get them to register democrat, anddd to get them to vote for the correct delegate while getting other registered republicans to change from republican to democrat and vote for the correct person. That's a lot. You can be killing 2 birds with one stone here. Educate people on SB281, tell them to vote against SB281, while doing that continue on with DINO movement talk. Also, you are asking people to vote for a person based on 1 issue. While people on this website are very pro-2A, most probably aren't or care more about different issues. I see a lot of problems persuading voters to vote for someone based on gun control when that same politician has different views on issues more important to those voters (if that makes sense)
7. Hadn't really thought about that and definitely could be a problem.

Lastly, a lot of these points I have read repeatedly on MDS. PLEASE tell me that those people have contacted MSI and got their info FROM MSI and not MSI getting their information from this forum.
I am just trying to get on board with what is best for us. I am not a lawyer, politician or claim to be well informed about any of this but my thinking persuades me in one direction. I will put my faith in MSI and NRA in the direction they think is best. I would like to see some type of real plan of attack in order to see where this is actually going and why they believe it will actually work. Just saying lets look forward to 2014 and voting these people out is no plan of action.

Sure that is a plan of action. Kind of like win the WAR. The devil is in the details though. Who needs to be voted out? Who do we stand a chance of voting out? How are we going to accomplish this? Are we going to get pro 2nd Amendment people to run as DINO's against them, or just vote for anybody that might be running against them in the primary in 2014?

Can somebody PM me the e-mail from MSI regarding referendum so I can make an educated decision on whether to get on board with this or not? Or, just e-mail it to me at my screen name at aol.com.

 

[Raineman]

fabrosman, this is a direct quote from you in another thread while discussing voters in this state,

"Don't underestimate how stupid the populace is."


After reading that (your words), I cannot understand how you are still avidly pushing the referendum route.

 

[OnTarget]

No one has mentioned the point that we had a huge victory at the Federal level, just yesterday. A momentum turner, indeed!
This could conceivably spill over into a Referendum victory, saying who are those guys in Annapolis that have the gall/nerve to pass SB281? Strike while the momentum is hot. In a couple of years, the trail might be cold again.

Why not use every tool that is available? The one you eliminate, might have been the winning ticket.