MSP Got one... Instructor caught cutting corners, permits invalidated.

[Wtlhntr]

So if the person already has 5hrs of classes, the next class he takes should only be 11hrs? What if a few hundred people have taken their full 16hrs required and a couple months later their instructor gets caught cutting it short by an hour even tho he has covered everything and range time is finished because say he only has 6 people in the class and theres nothing left to cover? It certainly isn’t right to pull permits from people 20 classes ago.

 

[Blacksmith101]

Hey now I am a designated protest collector

The Designated Protester Letter is only to allow you to participate in another protest without waiting 30 days between protests. Unless the subject of the protest meets the criteria of being a curio and relic protest subject over 50 years old.

 

[OMD6dawg]

I know a lot of people in this that have expressed opinions and those same people have a lot of skin in this game. Expressing one's displeasure with a scheme designed to deny rights is not "crying about it".

Please review COTUS, especially 2A and 14A, pay particular attention to the directive at the end of 2A that includes the words "shall not be infringed". State's rights are a great thing, but my right to keep and bear arms is NOT a state's right issue thank you very much.

Adding a training component isn’t infringement, or it would‘ve been removed. That’s what the State added. I’m salty I even had to explain that.

 

[OMD6dawg]

States rights have not a thing to do with Constitutional Rights... "Shall not be infringed ". Oh, yeah, and Heller, Macdonald, Bruen and the 14th.

Again, MD added a training component. You’ll get it after that. Like you already did to obtain it if you have one.

 

[OMD6dawg]

No one is crying about 16 hour classes(well, maybe some, including me), but to not prescribe, and then later, invalidate said classes, is complete bulllshit. THAT IS the complaint. Whether is pleases the Crown or not.

That’s not what most are crying about. I agree with you, but to circle it back to the original point of this thread, the instructor was found to be fraudulent in his administration of the class, therefore negating all that used his services. That‘s what would happen if a police officer was found to be lacking in credibility. All his cases previous and current would be compromised.


That’s why this is prime example that cutting corners can cost you when you least suspect it *shrugs*

 

[OMD6dawg]

why can some states not require training, others very limited time training, and then you have Merryland? With the stooopid DL comparison, I believe all states are pretty much the same or do some states require no training, some require minimal, and others tons?

Because the Federal government does not issue gun permits, the States, or in some places, the local judge or sheriff. Again, States Rights on how they manage gun permitting.

Being that this is a Constitutional right, maybe the ATF should make themselves useful and issue federal level permits That would be good in all 50 States and the territories.

 

[Blacksmith101]

The HQL was the dumbest thing ever. It solved nothing nor deterred a thing.

I will also add this: The Constitution is a set of high level bylaws. The devil is in the details of the codified laws and torts of the States, which cannot directly or indirectly go against nor supersede the high level bylaws ie: The Constitution.

States Rights: The Gift and the Curse.

It deterred many handgun sales. Many people on this forum stopped buying handguns because they refused to get an HQL. I did until a deal came up I couldn't refuse so reluctantly I got mine.

 

[OMD6dawg]

It deterred many handgun sales. Many people on this forum stopped buying handguns because they refused to get an HQL. I did until a deal came up I couldn't refuse so reluctantly I got mine.

I was referring to crime. Your point is still valid, though.

 

[rbird7282]

Adding a training component isn’t infringement, or it would‘ve been removed. That’s what the State added. I’m salty I even had to explain that.

Tell that to the people who can’t afford it.
Yes it absolutely is an infringement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[OMD6dawg]

Tell that to the people who can’t afford it.
Yes it absolutely is an infringement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If they can’t afford it, how will they afford a gun? Again, people will pay for what they deem most necessary to their household.

You paid for it, right? Honestly, I do not care if someone can’t afford it. The state didn’t set the price for training.

 

[trickg]

The HQL was the dumbest thing ever. It solved nothing nor deterred a thing.

I will also add this: The Constitution is a set of high level bylaws. The devil is in the details of the codified laws and torts of the States, which cannot directly or indirectly go against nor supersede the high level bylaws ie: The Constitution.

States Rights: The Gift and the Curse.

It deterred many handgun sales. Many people on this forum stopped buying handguns because they refused to get an HQL. I did until a deal came up I couldn't refuse so reluctantly I got mine.

I completely agree that it deterred a lot of folks. I pushed through a couple of purchases under the wire prior to October of 2013, and I was bound and determined to not get an HQL on principle alone. Then I got the itch to buy another pistol, so I broke down a year later and got it. Then I re-enlisted in the National Guard after a 10 year break in 2015, and it was all for naught - at this point I don't need one, and never will.

Aside from that though, I was exempt from the training requirement of the HQL, so it was a lot easier for me to do it. I know there were a bunch of people who wanted to buy a gun, were told they needed an HQL, and after learning what it was going to entail, the time it was going to take and the cost it was going to incur, were like, "f*** that!"

 

[BigWilly]

If they can’t afford it, how will they afford a gun? Again, people will pay for what they deem most necessary to their household.

You paid for it, right? Honestly, I do not care if someone can’t afford it. The state didn’t set the price for training.

It is not uncommon for guns to inherited. The word "infringed" means it shouldn't have arbitrary requirements. It should not be a choice better paying this months rent or paying for a class to get a permit. It's ********. You don't need a class to excercise your freedom of speech or freedom of religion.



Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

 

[BigWilly]

It deterred many handgun sales. Many people on this forum stopped buying handguns because they refused to get an HQL. I did until a deal came up I couldn't refuse so reluctantly I got mine.

I refused to get the HQL on principle. I only did get it because I wanted a carry gun since Bruen meant I could now get a HGP.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

 

[jrumann59]

Personally the training requirement sucks, there were two choices full training or exemption. There should have been a qualification only option as well, many of us have carry permits from other states that required training but no live fire. My training class was 50/50 on other state carriers and new carriers with experience with firearms only 2 people needed the HQL. Our class moved quick, there were not very many questions since most of it was repetitive for the carriers only new part being MD law, that section actually took the longest. Safety we went through pretty quickly, different types of carry guns the what and why. Only good thing is the money went to the instructor and not the state at least.

 

[Brychan]

If they can’t afford it, how will they afford a gun? Again, people will pay for what they deem most necessary to their household.

You paid for it, right? Honestly, I do not care if someone can’t afford it. The state didn’t set the price for training.

Of course how silly of us. Its so clear now, just tell the kids no groceries this week I have to pay for my state mandated training class. Also tell your boss you have to have the 2 days off to attend the state required class no matter what, balls can always find another job, right.

Is your priority to get to work without getting, robbed, raped, or killed without even putting up a defense, or using money for providing for your families bare necessities. Remember its what you deem to be the most necessary, not the states fault that rights come with a price tag that some Yahoo's put in place because they had to pretend they had a clue.

Thank you so much for explaining to us.

 

[OMD6dawg]

It is not uncommon for guns to inherited. The word "infringed" means it shouldn't have arbitrary requirements. It should not be a choice better paying this months rent or paying for a class to get a permit. It's ********. You don't need a class to excercise your freedom of speech or freedom of religion.



Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

The training isn’t arbitrary, though. If you pass, you get one. Easy peasy. You fail, come back and qual again.

This is almost laughable that y’all are crying over it, yet YOU ALL genuflected to get that HGP. I already said I didn’t like it, but it is a means to an end. And someone go pull the gun sales in Md from Oct 2013 until now. I promise you all these little tantrums and silent protests didn’t put nare gun store in the Republic of MD out of business.

Focus all that energy on changing the laws We don’t like instead of bitching about it around water coolers and gun range snack bars.

 

[OMD6dawg]

Of course how silly of us. Its so clear now, just tell the kids no groceries this week I have to pay for my state mandated training class. Also tell your boss you have to have the 2 days off to attend the state required class no matter what, balls can always find another job, right.

Is your priority to get to work without getting, robbed, raped, or killed without even putting up a defense, or using money for providing for your families bare necessities. Remember its what you deem to be the most necessary, not the states fault that rights come with a price tag that some Yahoo's put in place because they had to pretend they had a clue.

Thank you so much for explaining to us.

i have cheese to go with this whine. I’ve seen some of the, let’s say, less fortunate than me, have more guns and ammo than I may have had at one time. So, people pay for what they deem necessary for their household. If protection from all that wild and unruly thugs on a rampage while they’re picking up dinner on the way from work, trust and believe, they’ll make a way for it. Stop speaking for them, especially since you more than likely paid for it, just as I did.

 

[Blacksmith101]

Just a matter of time.

 

[Brychan]

The training isn’t arbitrary, though. If you pass, you get one. Easy peasy. You fail, come back and qual again.

This is almost laughable that y’all are crying over it, yet YOU ALL genuflected to get that HGP. I already said I didn’t like it, but it is a means to an end. And someone go pull the gun sales in Md from Oct 2013 until now. I promise you all these little tantrums and silent protests didn’t put nare gun store in the Republic of MD out of business.

Focus all that energy on changing the laws We don’t like instead of bitching about it around water coolers and gun range snack bars.

i have cheese to go with this whine. I’ve seen some of the, let’s say, less fortunate than me, have more guns and ammo than I may have had at one time. So, people pay for what they deem necessary for their household. If protection from all that wild and unruly thugs on a rampage while they’re picking up dinner on the way from work, trust and believe, they’ll make a way for it. Stop speaking for them, especially since you more than likely paid for it, just as I did.

Well Bless Your Heart

 

[Boondock Saint]

Considering the wide variability in quality and costs, the best average probably would be the state conducting the training supposing the state gave 2 craps about creating decent training.

That is NOT a knock against any trainer reading this. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt and most of ya’ll are probably great. But there are crappy trainers out there. And there are even some fine ones, but charging an arm and a leg. The state isn’t looking to make a profit (that doesn’t mean the legislature doesn’t mandate punitive costs). Someone doing it for a living, or at least a side gig is. Yes the state has to pay an employee or a contractor to do it. But probably the state could or would work up a decent training at a pretty fair price. Whether that is a price to the applicant or a price to the tax payer. This is one of the sorts of things that private industry likely can’t do cheaper and provide reasonable quality unless someone is deciding to do it as a hobby or out of the goodness of their heart.

Given time and decent enforcement, probably things will shake out in “private industry” where good instructors or more advanced instructors can charge a premium and the ones just offering to drag you through what you have to do for the minimum or catering to “newbs” sort themselves out and really differentiate in the market place. But you’ll still always have some guys taking advantage of customers in some way. Hopefully it sorts it’s self out because they aren’t getting anyone back for renewals and their business dries up in a few months as new applicants slow way down and their bad reputation is heard even by some people new to guns looking for a class.

More hopefully training requirements are struck down and any trainers out there pivot to doing training for people really wanting to learn, and not those who must take a class to please the king.

The wide variability/costs is a perfect free market solution. State-run [insert thing here] will generally be the least efficient method of doing something, and it will be done using our tax dollars. Hard pass on that.

The market sorting itself out is exactly what I'd like to see happen. As it stands, the required training needs to take 16 hours and cover the HQL requirements. That's it. If someone wants more than that, fantastic. If not, that's fine. Of course the more good training someone receives, the better.

We agree of course that mandatory training, particularly an onerous requirement of 16 hours, is complete crap.

See, I knew someone would retort with the “please the crown” rhetoric. States Rights is a bitch. It doesn’t hinder you from getting one anymore, you just have to sit for the 16 hr class. Then you receive your permit. There are barriers in life. Go over or go around. Or wait until you can obtain it. What’s the alternative for those 3 people? Carry illegally? That’s their right as well.

I’m going to say it again: until SCOTUS (which the new gun god Thomas didn’t strike down……) says training is unconstitutional, all this crying about it, is just that.

States' rights aren't a bitch. They do not come at the expense of those that belong to the people first, however. Again, there is literally no other fundamental, enumerated right that requires training to exercise it. The 2A is not a second class amendment, despite what the grabbers and the "I support the 2A, but" simpletons would say on the matter.

The text of the 2A is clear to anyone who has a rough understanding of the language and the context of the time in which it was written. Heller states that enumerated rights are understood to have the scope that they had at the time of their adoption. In no way, shape, or form was training a requirement to keep and bear arms in 1791, and it was not required at the reconstruction. Bruen cites Heller throughout the opinion. The right isn't even subject to strict scrutiny. It's that fundamental.

You are correct that training was not explicitly struck down by Bruen or any other 2A case, but it cannot withstand that test as outlined above.

Defending training requirements because it's the state requiring them as opposed to the feds is embracing the willful disenfranchisement of certain people. Even if it is the states saying so and not the feds, that doesn't make it right.

I suppose it was just crying when we had laws in this country that disenfranchised folks of a different race, sex, and/or religion. Black Catholic women should have just gone over or around those laws. It turns out, the 2A is meant exactly for that kind of shit.