MSP Got one... Instructor caught cutting corners, permits invalidated.

[OMD6dawg]

I think people should train and seek training. I also strongly believe you should not be REQUIRED to train to exercise a constitutional right. If it doesn’t apply to the FIRST, it doesn’t apply to the SECOND.

Show me THT that says otherwise.

If you disagree, please tell me which tyrant is your favorite!

See for me, while training shouldn’t be be instituted for a right, what I’m not going to do is cry and pout about the training. Is it a hoop? Yes. A small one compared to “Good and substantial“ reason I had to use when I was in college and got one.

The court didn’t strike down the training req. So, are we gonna keep crying about it, or find resolution in obtaining what a Marylander has wanted most for an eternity?

 

[OMD6dawg]

Agree.

I remember when O’Malley compared the HQL to a drivers license. I lost my mind. One is a right, the other is a privilege. And I do NOT need to have a drivers license to buy a car…I need an ID. I DO NOT need a drivers license to own that car. I do NOT need a drivers license to operate that car on private property. The ONLY time I need a DL is to operate it on public roads.

Morons who know nothing about guns think ownership is a privilege the government can control.

We do not live in a democracy. We live in a Constitutional Republic. In a Democracy, the rights of the majority are protected. In a Constitutional Republic the rights to the INDIVIDUAL are protect…thats me…and YOU. The Constituition of the United States sets the conditions by which we the people grant our consent to be governed. It’s the rule book elected officials must follow…

MANY MAHY MANY Americans have forgotten this key point And have allowed our Government to get out of control.

Prove me wrong.

The HQL was the dumbest thing ever. It solved nothing nor deterred a thing.

I will also add this: The Constitution is a set of high level bylaws. The devil is in the details of the codified laws and torts of the States, which cannot directly or indirectly go against nor supersede the high level bylaws ie: The Constitution.

States Rights: The Gift and the Curse.

 

[Kman]

It's not stupidity . It was intended to be an inconvenience and expense to discourage getting Permits . It works exactly as intended .

Any transfer of practical skills and useful knowledge is strickly coincidental .

To whatever extent that actual training was envisioned by the Crown , it was intended to be extremely basic . Seriously .

One of the widespread Anti Gunner fantasies is the subsection of Blood in the Streets of : OMG ! Some Person that has never touched a gun before . could go out , and accidentally kill a school bus full of nuns .

In many of their minds , they default to every person carrying a gun , is an idiot with zero knowledge , skill , or experience , who any second now is about to ACCIDENTALLY kill 50 innocent bystanders .

They don't care about improving your split times , transitions , or switching multiple targets . They think they have to force you to learn to not shoot yourself , or the person standing next to you in the foot .

Hear hear!

It's not stupidity . It was intended to be an inconvenience and expense to discourage getting Permits . It works exactly as intended .

Any transfer of practical skills and useful knowledge is strickly coincidental .

To whatever extent that actual training was envisioned by the Crown , it was intended to be extremely basic . Seriously .

One of the widespread Anti Gunner fantasies is the subsection of Blood in the Streets of : OMG ! Some Person that has never touched a gun before . could go out , and accidentally kill a school bus full of nuns .

In many of their minds , they default to every person carrying a gun , is an idiot with zero knowledge , skill , or experience , who any second now is about to ACCIDENTALLY kill 50 innocent bystanders .

They don't care about improving your split times , transitions , or switching multiple targets . They think they have to force you to learn to not shoot yourself , or the person standing next to you in the foot .

Hear! Hear!

 

[Boondock Saint]

See for me, while training shouldn’t be be instituted for a right, what I’m not going to do is cry and pout about the training. Is it a hoop? Yes. A small one compared to “Good and substantial“ reason I had to use when I was in college and got one.

The court didn’t strike down the training req. So, are we gonna keep crying about it, or find resolution in obtaining what a Marylander has wanted most for an eternity?

You admit that required training is wrong, but suggest that the infringement to exercise a right is small enough to excuse. Functionally, "if it pleases the crown,..."

Nope. There is no other fundamental, enumerated right that requires training as a precondition of it being exercised. The hundreds of dollars, hours of time, lost income, etc. are not insignificant and are in fact a barrier. I know at least three people who are choosing not to jump through those hoops because they lack the time and/or money to do so.

All three of them would have permits right now if they lived in PA or any other state that doesn't unconstitutionally infringe on our rights.

 

[OMD6dawg]

It's not stupidity . It was intended to be an inconvenience and expense to discourage getting Permits . It works exactly as intended .

Any transfer of practical skills and useful knowledge is strickly coincidental .

To whatever extent that actual training was envisioned by the Crown , it was intended to be extremely basic . Seriously .

One of the widespread Anti Gunner fantasies is the subsection of Blood in the Streets of : OMG ! Some Person that has never touched a gun before . could go out , and accidentally kill a school bus full of nuns .

In many of their minds , they default to every person carrying a gun , is an idiot with zero knowledge , skill , or experience , who any second now is about to ACCIDENTALLY kill 50 innocent bystanders .

They don't care about improving your split times , transitions , or switching multiple targets . They think they have to force you to learn to not shoot yourself , or the person standing next to you in the foot .

I wish we had a like button on here. I’d like these a thousand times.

And I do care about improving my transitions

 

[Sharpster]

My cousin took the training with the same instructor OP mentioned. From my understanding, His 16 hr class lasted a total of 5hrs. The shooting portion never happened and supposedly the instructor just fabricated a score and a date that was a week prior the class. My cousin was a 7/28 acceptance and when the 7/28s were getting approved he received an email from msp stating he has 120 days to get another certification of the class because His instructor basically was found to be cutting corners. Then the next day an email stating he was denied and had to redo the process. As OP said the instructor set him up with another QHIC at no cost.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[lazarus]

The less the state decides, the better.

"Free" training would paid for with tax dollars in what will universally be recognized as an inefficient manner. In such a scenario we could consider ourselves lucky if it's not actually the most inefficient manner possible.

No, thanks.

Considering the wide variability in quality and costs, the best average probably would be the state conducting the training supposing the state gave 2 craps about creating decent training.

That is NOT a knock against any trainer reading this. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt and most of ya’ll are probably great. But there are crappy trainers out there. And there are even some fine ones, but charging an arm and a leg. The state isn’t looking to make a profit (that doesn’t mean the legislature doesn’t mandate punitive costs). Someone doing it for a living, or at least a side gig is. Yes the state has to pay an employee or a contractor to do it. But probably the state could or would work up a decent training at a pretty fair price. Whether that is a price to the applicant or a price to the tax payer. This is one of the sorts of things that private industry likely can’t do cheaper and provide reasonable quality unless someone is deciding to do it as a hobby or out of the goodness of their heart.

Given time and decent enforcement, probably things will shake out in “private industry” where good instructors or more advanced instructors can charge a premium and the ones just offering to drag you through what you have to do for the minimum or catering to “newbs” sort themselves out and really differentiate in the market place. But you’ll still always have some guys taking advantage of customers in some way. Hopefully it sorts it’s self out because they aren’t getting anyone back for renewals and their business dries up in a few months as new applicants slow way down and their bad reputation is heard even by some people new to guns looking for a class.

More hopefully training requirements are struck down and any trainers out there pivot to doing training for people really wanting to learn, and not those who must take a class to please the king.

 

[OMD6dawg]

You admit that required training is wrong, but suggest that the infringement to exercise a right is small enough to excuse. Functionally, "if it pleases the crown,..."

Nope. There is no other fundamental, enumerated right that requires training as a precondition of it being exercised. The hundreds of dollars, hours of time, lost income, etc. are not insignificant and are in fact a barrier. I know at least three people who are choosing not to jump through those hoops because they lack the time and/or money to do so.

All three of them would have permits right now if they lived in PA or any other state that doesn't unconstitutionally infringe on our rights.

See, I knew someone would retort with the “please the crown” rhetoric. States Rights is a bitch. It doesn’t hinder you from getting one anymore, you just have to sit for the 16 hr class. Then you receive your permit. There are barriers in life. Go over or go around. Or wait until you can obtain it. What’s the alternative for those 3 people? Carry illegally? That’s their right as well.

I’m going to say it again: until SCOTUS (which the new gun god Thomas didn’t strike down……) says training is unconstitutional, all this crying about it, is just that.

 

[csanc123]

My cousin took the training with the same instructor OP mentioned. From my understanding, His 16 hr class lasted a total of 5hrs. The shooting portion never happened and supposedly the instructor just fabricated a score and a date that was a week prior the class. My cousin was a 7/28 acceptance and when the 7/28s were getting approved he received an email from msp stating he has 120 days to get another certification of the class because His instructor basically was found to be cutting corners. Then the next day an email stating he was denied and had to redo the process. As OP said the instructor at him up with another QHIC at no cost.

¯\_(ツ)_/

Wow...guess that instructor is indeed a bad apple.

 

[BigWilly]

My cousin took the training with the same instructor OP mentioned. From my understanding, His 16 hr class lasted a total of 5hrs. The shooting portion never happened and supposedly the instructor just fabricated a score and a date that was a week prior the class. My cousin was a 7/28 acceptance and when the 7/28s were getting approved he received an email from msp stating he has 120 days to get another certification of the class because His instructor basically was found to be cutting corners. Then the next day an email stating he was denied and had to redo the process. As OP said the instructor at him up with another QHIC at no cost.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I wonder if the 2nd training your cousin has to do is being paid by the original instructor and if so was it required by MDSP?

Like it was said above, if I get a call that I have to redo training because my instructor decided to start cutting corners on later classes, I'd be really p!issed off. And if I had to pay again, I think I'd go ballistic.

There are so many things wrong with this whole training requirement that has been said before.

I think a majority of us are happy just be able to get the permit after years of being told no we're not good enough. I just wish it would be treated like a driver's license - uniform training and national recopricity. Well aside from permit less carry that is.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

 

[FrankZ]

See, I knew someone would retort with the “please the crown” rhetoric. States Rights is a bitch. It doesn’t hinder you from getting one anymore, you just have to sit for the 16 hr class. Then you receive your permit. There are barriers in life. Go over or go around. Or wait until you can obtain it. What’s the alternative for those 3 people? Carry illegally? That’s their right as well.

I’m going to say it again: until SCOTUS (which the new gun god Thomas didn’t strike down……) says training is unconstitutional, all this crying about it, is just that.

I know a lot of people in this that have expressed opinions and those same people have a lot of skin in this game. Expressing one's displeasure with a scheme designed to deny rights is not "crying about it".

Please review COTUS, especially 2A and 14A, pay particular attention to the directive at the end of 2A that includes the words "shall not be infringed". State's rights are a great thing, but my right to keep and bear arms is NOT a state's right issue thank you very much.

 

[6-Pack]

I wonder if the 2nd training your cousin has to do is being paid by the original instructor and if so was it required by MDSP?

Like it was said above, if I get a call that I have to redo training because my instructor decided to start cutting corners on later classes, I'd be really p!issed off. And if I had to pay again, I think I'd go ballistic.

There are so many things wrong with this whole training requirement that has been said before.

I think a majority of us are happy just be able to get the permit after years of being told no we're not good enough. I just wish it would be treated like a driver's license - uniform training and national recopricity. Well aside from permit less carry that is.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

I just had a thought, and something that would probably hold up in court if you pressed the issue: just because the instructor cut corners on the class the plant/informant was in, doesn’t mean the instructor cut corners in all of their classes.

Invalidating a license for a class that hasn’t been proven to be an issue may become problematic. Revoking the trainer’s license is appropriate, but retroactively revoking licenses for classes that weren’t proven to have corners cut could put MSP in some unnecessary litigation.

For example, if a class on 8/12 was proven to cut corners, you can’t prove that the instructor cut corners on an 8/1 or 7/21 classes.

 

[Storm40]

See, I knew someone would retort with the “please the crown” rhetoric. States Rights is a bitch. It doesn’t hinder you from getting one anymore, you just have to sit for the 16 hr class. Then you receive your permit. There are barriers in life. Go over or go around. Or wait until you can obtain it. What’s the alternative for those 3 people? Carry illegally? That’s their right as well.

I’m going to say it again: until SCOTUS (which the new gun god Thomas didn’t strike down……) says training is unconstitutional, all this crying about it, is just that.

States rights have not a thing to do with Constitutional Rights... "Shall not be infringed ". Oh, yeah, and Heller, Macdonald, Bruen and the 14th.

 

[BigWilly]

I just had a thought, and something that would probably hold up in court if you pressed the issue: just because the instructor cut corners on the class the plant/informant was in, doesn’t mean the instructor cut corners in all of their classes.

Invalidating a license for a class that hasn’t been proven to be an issue may become problematic. Revoking the trainer’s license is appropriate, but retroactively revoking licenses for classes that weren’t proven to have corners cut could put MSP in some unnecessary litigation.

For example, if a class on 8/12 was proven to cut corners, you can’t prove that the instructor cut corners on an 8/1 or 7/21 classes.

I would hope that you are right. It would be crazy for them to revoke all the students permits. Maybe it's only the class that they have proof that are affected.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

 

[outrider58]

I think people should train and seek training. I also strongly believe you should not be REQUIRED to train to exercise a constitutional right. If it doesn’t apply to the FIRST, it doesn’t apply to the SECOND.

Show me THT that says otherwise.

If you disagree, please tell me which tyrant is your favorite!

How many times does this have to be said...

 

[rseymorejr]

Looks like moms demand action is well represented

 

[1841DNG]

Yeah, wait 7 days for an additional protest, regardless of how many protests you already acquired and have readily available….

Hey now I am a designated protest collector

 

[outrider58]

See, I knew someone would retort with the “please the crown” rhetoric. States Rights is a bitch. It doesn’t hinder you from getting one anymore, you just have to sit for the 16 hr class. Then you receive your permit. There are barriers in life. Go over or go around. Or wait until you can obtain it. What’s the alternative for those 3 people? Carry illegally? That’s their right as well.

I’m going to say it again: until SCOTUS (which the new gun god Thomas didn’t strike down……) says training is unconstitutional, all this crying about it, is just that.

No one is crying about 16 hour classes(well, maybe some, including me), but to not prescribe, and then later, invalidate said classes, is complete bulllshit. THAT IS the complaint. Whether is pleases the Crown or not.

 

[babalou]

Yeah, wait 7 days for an additional protest, regardless of how many protests you already acquired and have readily available….

100%

 

[babalou]

See for me, while training shouldn’t be be instituted for a right, what I’m not going to do is cry and pout about the training. Is it a hoop? Yes. A small one compared to “Good and substantial“ reason I had to use when I was in college and got one.

The court didn’t strike down the training req. So, are we gonna keep crying about it, or find resolution in obtaining what a Marylander has wanted most for an eternity?

why can some states not require training, others very limited time training, and then you have Merryland? With the stooopid DL comparison, I believe all states are pretty much the same or do some states require no training, some require minimal, and others tons?