Longest Length AR Carbine Stock and Buffer Combo

[MACTHEGUN]

My point was not barrel length per say, but that minimum/maximum measurements are taken from the permanent end of a muzzle. With a monolithic rail, one could try to get it through but it seems a bit of a stretch(sorry for the pun). But, I'm no expert.

Yes, for NON-SBR applications. The BATFE website depicts correct measurement of the overall length (again, for non SBR applications) as being measured on a centerline of the bore from the end of the extended butstock to the end of the barrel sans muzzle device (unless pinned/welded) but of course this is with the required minimum 16" barrel which will extend beyond the rail. When the requirements were written, obviously the practice of short barrel/long rail was not taken into consideration. For SBR's there are no Federal barrel/overall length requirements. If Md follows the Federal guidelines, then there are no barrel length standards in Md as they do not have any mention of it in the FSA, just overall length requirements.

As Pinecone had outlined/questioned, my answer is yes and no. Which seems to be the intent of these types of ambiguous laws, they keep us "honest" by being too afraid to question them. I believe that this is why we have bad laws on the books for many years before they are finally questioned and subsequently recended.

 

[clandestine]

Sounds like someone needs to write a letter.

 

[outrider58]

Sounds like someone needs to write a letter.

Uh oh....

 

[IgotAgun]

I wrote an email to the "ask an expert" section on the ATF's eform site. This is hardly a letter, so unless they have already interpreted this question I doubt I will get an answer. I sent the email a few days ago so we will see. If its interpreted as legal then this will be great news for Marylanders wanting to start a 9mm or 300 Blackout SBR build.

Actually it may be more useful to ask MSP. What do you guys think?

 

[MACTHEGUN]

Sounds like someone needs to write a letter.

Lol, not me....

I'm too sceered!

 

[MACTHEGUN]

I wrote an email to the "ask an expert" section on the ATF's eform site. This is hardly a letter, so unless they have already interpreted this question I doubt I will get an answer. I sent the email a few days ago so we will see. If its interpreted as legal then this will be great news for Marylanders wanting to start a 9mm or 300 Blackout SBR build.

Actually it may be more useful to ask MSP. What do you guys think?

If you asked the BATFE about Md law the answer will most assuredly be


I think they're tired of messing with us (and I can certainly understand their frustration).

 

[awptickes]

Unless you silver solder or pin and weld your rail to the receiver, it doesn't count to OAL. If you can take it off the firearm, and it'll still function (with few exceptions), it's not part of the firearm.

Stop poking the bear. You're going to **** all of us who have significant money invested in this game.

 

[MACTHEGUN]

Unless you silver solder or pin and weld your rail to the receiver, it doesn't count to OAL. If you can take it off the firearm, and it'll still function (with few exceptions), it's not part of the firearm.

Stop poking the bear. You're going to **** all of us who have significant money invested in this game.

Well, that is the question (that apparently is not to be asked) actually since there is nothing in the Md FSA or BATFE's guidelines (AFAIK) that specifically requires or even addresses pinning/welding of anything other than muzzle devices (used to meet the Federal NON-SBR 16" barrel and 26" overall length requirement).

I'm going to assume you were directing your last comment to IgotAgun as I agree that "poking" the wrong omnivorous carnivore can be counter productive (I am as well, one of the fully "invested" types you speak of).

 

[clandestine]

So what should I put in the letter?

 

[SWO Daddy]

I wrote an email to the "ask an expert" section on the ATF's eform site. This is hardly a letter, so unless they have already interpreted this question I doubt I will get an answer. I sent the email a few days ago so we will see. If its interpreted as legal then this will be great news for Marylanders wanting to start a 9mm or 300 Blackout SBR build.

Actually it may be more useful to ask MSP. What do you guys think?

Please, just STOP.

 

[SWO Daddy]

If you can take it off the firearm, and it'll still function (with few exceptions), it's not part of the firearm.

A carbine stock is fine to be counted towards OAL. But, if every dufus keeps asking the ATF enough OAL questions, I'm sure they'll revise that.

Stop poking the bear. You're going to **** all of us who have significant money invested in this game.

Agree there.

 

[outrider58]

I wrote an email to the "ask an expert" section on the ATF's eform site. This is hardly a letter, so unless they have already interpreted this question I doubt I will get an answer. I sent the email a few days ago so we will see. If its interpreted as legal then this will be great news for Marylanders wanting to start a 9mm or 300 Blackout SBR build.

Actually it may be more useful to ask MSP. What do you guys think?

I think it's a crappy idea. Just build a pistol an move on. Please.

 

[clandestine]

BTW, I'm joking guys. It's a pretty dumb thing to try or write a letter about.

 

[awptickes]

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the AR is an interesting rifle. It has many differences that make it harder for the ATF to wrap their head around. It's one of the few firearms that the receiver doesn't accept the barrel. Many of the ATF rulings are arbitrary and hard to comprehend as a result.

Your typical rifle doesn't have a stock that can be removed without tools. Your typical rifle requires more than hand-tools to swap barrels.

Take a second and apply what you know about the NFA regulations to something more typical, like the M1 Carbine, a 10/22, or even a BAR. Now transition the same logic to the AR-15.

If you were to cut down the barrel of the 10/22 so it doesn't extend past the foregrip section of the stock, would that count toward OAL? No. Because OAL is measured from the buttstock to the crown of the muzzle.
0
This kind of critical thinking is how you need to arrive at your answers.

A carbine stock is fine to be counted towards OAL. But, if every dufus keeps asking the ATF enough OAL questions, I'm sure they'll revise that.

Yeah, if people keep asking about it they'll say "You know what? We can **** all of these people again, then get applauded for 'making the streets safer' again."

Well, that is the question (that apparently is not to be asked) actually since there is nothing in the Md FSA or BATFE's guidelines (AFAIK) that specifically requires or even addresses pinning/welding of anything other than muzzle devices (used to meet the Federal NON-SBR 16" barrel and 26" overall length requirement).

I'm going to assume you were directing your last comment to IgotAgun as I agree that "poking" the wrong omnivorous carnivore can be counter productive (I am as well, one of the fully "invested" types you speak of).

I wasn't directing it at you. Poking a bear is a bad idea.

It's the same as asking questions where an answer that would result in more restrictions is easier to write.

BTW, I'm joking guys. It's a pretty dumb thing to try or write a letter about.

We know you like to write letters... You're the reason we don't have nice things.

 

[MACTHEGUN]

If you were to cut down the barrel of the 10/22 so it doesn't extend past the foregrip section of the stock, would that count toward OAL? No. Because OAL is measured from the buttstock to the crown of the muzzle.

Absolutely correct! For NON-SBR's.

 

[awptickes]

Absolutely correct! For NON-SBR's.

Let's not confuse the poor boy.

 

[clandestine]

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the AR is an interesting rifle. It has many differences that make it harder for the ATF to wrap their head around. It's one of the few firearms that the receiver doesn't accept the barrel. Many of the ATF rulings are arbitrary and hard to comprehend as a result.

Your typical rifle doesn't have a stock that can be removed without tools. Your typical rifle requires more than hand-tools to swap barrels.

Take a second and apply what you know about the NFA regulations to something more typical, like the M1 Carbine, a 10/22, or even a BAR. Now transition the same logic to the AR-15.

If you were to cut down the barrel of the 10/22 so it doesn't extend past the foregrip section of the stock, would that count toward OAL? No. Because OAL is measured from the buttstock to the crown of the muzzle.
0
This kind of critical thinking is how you need to arrive at your answers.



Yeah, if people keep asking about it they'll say "You know what? We can **** all of these people again, then get applauded for 'making the streets safer' again."



I wasn't directing it at you. Poking a bear is a bad idea.

It's the same as asking questions where an answer that would result in more restrictions is easier to write.



We know you like to write letters... You're the reason we don't have nice things.

 

[j_h_smith]

My AR 9mm rifle with a 8.5" barrel will not make 29.1" OAL with the VLTOR stock. Not even close. I guess if I ever do make it a SBR, it's going to need something pinned to make it legal.

Do we think that MD/BATF will change their minds on the 29" minimum?

I know, I know...just wishful thinking.

 

[clandestine]

Vltor stock in itself won't do it, they are referring to a Vltor A5 system which has a longer buffer tube. You can use an magpul ACS or Vltor to get a longer LOP.

You will need buffer spacers to run that with most 9mm buffers as there will be more bolt travel.

 

[outrider58]

My AR 9mm rifle with a 8.5" barrel will not make 29.1" OAL with the VLTOR stock. Not even close. I guess if I ever do make it a SBR, it's going to need something pinned to make it legal.

Do we think that MD/BATF will change their minds on the 29" minimum?

I know, I know...just wishful thinking.

Have you looked into integrally suppressed 9mm bbls? You're only , maybe, an inch and a half from making 29'', right? ...or am I wishfully thinking?