Longest Length AR Carbine Stock and Buffer Combo

[outrider58]

Unless its a mololithic rail thats integral to the upper that does not count for OAL then.

That's what I was getting at.

 

[IgotAgun]

So, let me get this perfectly straight. : the actual barrel length is 4.5". And you are using a handguard that is 9". Is that right?

Yes

 

[IgotAgun]

Unless its a mololithic rail thats integral to the upper that does not count for OAL then.

Are you sure? I will go back and reread the law, but it was my understanding that any rail could be counted against the OAL.

 

[IgotAgun]

Vltor A5 buffer tube with a Magpul ACS-L stock with 3/4" rubber pad will take a 9" barrel out to 29.25" OAL.

My concern is that the 9mm buffer and XP wolff buffer spring I bought for the build will not be compatible with the A5 buffer, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Does anyone know the A5's compatibility with the 9mm buffer?

 

[SWO Daddy]

My concern is that the 9mm buffer and XP wolff buffer spring I bought for the build will not be compatible with the A5 buffer, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Does anyone know the A5's compatibility with the 9mm buffer?

You need to use an A5 buffer with the A5 tube. Trying to put a carbine length buffer in an A5 tube is bad juju. With that said - you can get an A5 buffer in about any weight you want from 4 to 10 ounces.

http://heavybuffers.com/vltor.html

ETA: Also, you need to use a rifle-length spring with the A5 as was stated before.

 

[DYI01]

I have this exact setup on a 9mm. I am using a Spikes ST-9X buffer with the polymer buffer endcap trimmed to the same length of the A5 buffer. I trimmed about an 1/8" off of it to match it up. Then I used a Spikes 9mm buffer spacer for use with carbine length buffers in a 9mm. The action length ends up being perfect.

 

[clandestine]

Are you sure? I will go back and reread the law, but it was my understanding that any rail could be counted against the OAL.

On the front end, unless it's permanent it does not count. You can go ahead but you are trading in very dangerous waters.

 

[IgotAgun]

On the front end, unless it's permanent it does not count. You can go ahead but you are trading in very dangerous waters.

So it looks like the rail cannot be measured according to the ATF, but MD does not seem to specify if it can be counted in the OAL. Is it possible that it would violate federal and not MD law? Thus submitting a form 1 would keep it in compliance with federal law since it wont have a oal length requirement as an SBR.

Man this is confusing, but don't worry I'm not going to be writing letters to anyone about it.

 

[clandestine]

So it looks like the rail cannot be measured according to the ATF, but MD does not seem to specify if it can be counted in the OAL. Is it possible that it would violate federal and not MD law? Thus submitting a form 1 would keep it in compliance with federal law since it wont have a oal length requirement as an SBR.

Man this is confusing, but don't worry I'm not going to be writing letters to anyone about it.

MD follows federal guidelines when it comes to OAL measurements and permanent devices.

 

[IgotAgun]

MD follows federal guidelines when it comes to OAL measurements and permanent devices.

Okay. There goes my idea. I can just go with a 10.5 barrel like everyone else. The bright side is I can pick any stock setup I want. Thanks guys

 

[outrider58]

You could always pin and weld the can on. Depending on which can you use, shouldn't be a problem. Lots of folks do that with rimfires.

 

[SWO Daddy]

I'd like to see someone make a 4" homemade buttpad spacer to make OAL requirements.

As I understand it, the ATF reg's don't control stuff like that (yet) - someone correct me if I'm wrong. If it was kosher, you could drive out of state to go shooting and if you removed the spacer it would be fine.

 

[IgotAgun]

You could always pin and weld the can on. Depending on which can you use, shouldn't be a problem. Lots of folks do that with rimfires.

Can the rail be pinned and welded to be counted towards the OAL? Ugh, I just dont want to shoot suppressed out of a 10.5 barrel. Thats really cutting it close to transonic.

 

[MACTHEGUN]

Can the rail be pinned and welded to be counted towards the OAL? Ugh, I just dont want to shoot suppressed out of a 10.5 barrel. Thats really cutting it close to transonic.

It should not be a problem as Md law states overall length, not barrel length. This is exactly what I had considered doing myself if not using a monolithic upper. Also, when I addressed this here in the past someone pointed out that the whole barrel/suppressor "pin and weld" thing is an ATF ruling for barrel devices to meet barrel length requirements and has nothing to do with meeting any other Federal requirement even if it does affect overall length on the paper work.

I have to assume that the concern by the Md powers-to-be is concealability not whether or not we can circumvent the "rules". But then again "assuming" can get you jail time in this game as the rule makers hate it when they percieve a go-around (when we do them) and in retaliation is the reason why these laws are so ridiculous. JMO as INAL

 

[outrider58]

Can the rail be pinned and welded to be counted towards the OAL? Ugh, I just dont want to shoot suppressed out of a 10.5 barrel. Thats really cutting it close to transonic.

My guess would be no.

It should not be a problem as Md law states overall length, not barrel length. This is exactly what I had considered doing myself if not using a monolithic upper. Also, when I addressed this here in the past someone pointed out that the whole barrel/suppressor "pin and weld" thing is an ATF ruling for barrel devices to meet barrel length requirements and has nothing to do with meeting any other Federal requirement even if it does affect overall length on the paper work.

See below.

MD follows federal guidelines when it comes to OAL measurements and permanent devices.

 

[MACTHEGUN]

Essentially, Md speaks to the overall length of the firearm with stock extended minus muzzle device (as in the federal requirements) but does not limit barrel length choices so if you can achieve an overall length (IAW above) you've achieved the Md standard. As to whether you must pin/weld the handguard is open to debate. My assumption is that you need not since there is no federal requirement to do so and Md follows federal guidelines.

It's been a while since I've read SB281 so I may have missed something but I personally believe that if you meet the minimum 29" standard, you've met the Md requirement barrel length and pin/welding of handguard notwithstanding.

 

[outrider58]

Essentially, Md speaks to the overall length of the firearm with stock extended minus muzzle device (as in the federal requirements) but does not limit barrel length choices so if you can achieve an overall length (IAW above) you've achieved the Md standard. As to whether you must pin/weld the handguard is open to debate. My assumption is that you need not since there is no federal requirement to do so and Md follows federal guidelines.

It's been a while since I've read SB281 so I may have missed something but I personally believe that if you meet the minimum 29" standard, you've met the Md requirement barrel length and pin/welding of handguard notwithstanding.

Said very well but, what of the NFA requiring a"minimum barrel length" of no less than 16". I have never read the NFA of 1968 but have always understood the 16" part to be binding.

 

[MACTHEGUN]

Said very well but, what of the NFA requiring a"minimum barrel length" of no less than 16". I have never read the NFA of 1968 but have always understood the 16" part to be binding.

Yes, but I was of the impression that (in this thread) we were speaking of SBR's only as Federal SBR regs do not limit the barrel or OAL of a legally possessed SBR. When the NFA speaks of a muzzle device needing to be pinned/welded it is referring to meeting the minumum non-SBR requirement of a 16" barrel and an overall length of 26".

Of course, most any rifle with a 16" barrel will meet the 26" (non-SBR Federal) and 29" (Md SBR) OAL requirements. I can't say how my therory would stand up in Md court but I don't really see anything that say's otherwise.

Any lawyers in the house that would like to take a whack at this???

 

[outrider58]

Yes, but I was of the impression that (in this thread) we were speaking of SBR's only as Federal SBR regs do not limit the barrel or OAL of a legally possessed SBR. When the NFA speaks of a muzzle device needing to be pinned/welded it is referring to meeting the minumum non-SBR requirement of a 16" barrel and an overall length of 26".

Of course, most any rifle with a 16" barrel will meet the 26" (non-SBR Federal) and 29" (Md SBR) OAL requirements. I can't say how my therory would stand up in Md court but I don't really see anything that say's otherwise.

Any lawyers in the house that would like to take a whack at this???

My point was not barrel length per say, but that minimum/maximum measurements are taken from the permanent end of a muzzle. With a monolithic rail, one could try to get it through but it seems a bit of a stretch(sorry for the pun). But, I'm no expert.

 

[Pinecone]

As with many of these things, if they are not specified as not legal, they should be legal.

BUT, are you willing to be the test case? Which would involve lots of money in legal fees, court time, possibly arrest, and if you lose, you lose the right to own firearms forever. And if you win, you are still out the time and money.