I only have access to static targets at the range. That's better than nothing at all.
Let's talk self-defense ammo
- Thread starter Diogenes
- Start date
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Patrick
MSI Executive Member
I bought a case of this a little while back; it seems it's not a favorite of the cool kids anymore now that Federal HST and other "super-modern advanced rounds". are out. So the price was good. It shoots clean, is quite accurate at under 25 yard range (haven't pushed farther) and burns pretty clean. Also, it's been used by a lot of LEOs, so it's had some legs put on it in terms of usage.
I don't get into the whole "best SD round" thing because I can do some basic math, and it says a shot well placed is gonna do bad things. The rest is really arguing over a 0.1% difference. Also, not a fan of the new +P+ stuff because it's got more "snap" for me. Everyone is different, but for me the extra-power loadings are usually going to require more work to shoot well. I see my multi-shot (rapid) groupings go downhill with the higher-power stuff.
Other HP/SD rounds I have shot that I like:
- Federal HST 124 and the 147: more snap but also quite accurate in my guns. I like these a lot and am waiting for a chance to buy more at a good price. The heavier rounds are easier to shoot, for me.
- Fiocchi APHP (147, I think): Good shooting, excellent price and not subject to price pressure from the cool kids. It's not bonded, but frankly that isn't my problem. I bought a case of this on sale.
If I find a sale I get ammo in bulk. It's the kind of thing you can split with someone. Some brands - like the Fiocchi HP - are not overly popular and therefore cheap enough in bulk to actually shoot as part of training. It's not FMJ-cheap, but it's far from Federal HST expensive.
Basically, if you buy good ammo that the cool kids don't obsess over, then you can actually afford HP in your training regimen. If you train for SD, there might be some value in training with the exact rounds you will carry. I don't have to worry about the differences in "range" FMJ and "defense" HP at that point. The shot is always the same.
The guns in question: Glock 19 and Kahr PM9. None of the above rounds have had any feed/extraction issue in either gun.
Hope this helps.
Sirex
Powered by natural gas
The secret is attach a laser to you gun. Then a small contraption on a cat to hold a target above it's back. Align the laser to hit about 9 inches lower than the actual bullet impact. Then take the target holding cat to the range and turn on the laser and flick it back and forth. While the cat is chasing the laser around try to hit it's target. Perfect on the move target training. If you miss, I think you get 8 misses per cat right? So what did we learn? Cats love lasers.
ianmcall
Active Member
147gr Winchester PDX1 here
- May 10, 2012
- 1,892
Pdx1 fan here!!
bobnieder
S&W Fan
My last batch of home defense ammo was Corbon 135gr Pow'R Ball (.40 S&W), but I'm planning on going to the DPX next time (although Speer Gold Dots are still in the running).
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Kuya Relli Boy
Member
I used PDX1s and trust them for home defense until I can start carrying.
Besides researching them myself, youtuber TNOUTDOORS9 has a great review on them. In fact, he probably has reviewed all the brands you're looking at so give him a look.
Peace.
Besides researching them myself, youtuber TNOUTDOORS9 has a great review on them. In fact, he probably has reviewed all the brands you're looking at so give him a look.
Peace.
- May 10, 2012
- 1,892
I would like to locate a box of Black Talons in 45 acp in the near future. If any of you guys have an idea of a place I could look and what kind of premiums I can expect to pay let me know.
Diogenes
Roll Tide!
Why not get some ranger t's? They're bonded and much better.
Matter of fact I keep 230gr +p ranger t's in my .45.
- May 10, 2012
- 1,892
I have one box of ranger law enforcement ammo in 40 s&w that is being saved for a rainy day(shtf scenario) and just wanted to locate a box of talons for the collector effect. Other than that I am a fan of the pdx1 ammo in all calibers. Good tip though Diogenes as I agree Rangers are tough to beat. I am super interested in the Hornady Critical Duty line as well for stashing purposes!!
Attachments
PCO31
Glockstar
- Mar 3, 2011
- 175
My favorite 9mm load right now is Fiocchi 158 gr fmj subsonic....its subsonic, super accurate. Not going to expand, but if the suppressed machinegunners use it.....why not in a pistol.
All I can say is this: whatever ammo you choose, make sure you buy enough of it that you can test it to be SURE it feeds reliably. My test is to buy enough for three full magazine loads, and then choose one magazine (usually the factory mag that came with the gun). I test the magazine, gun, and ammo combination through two full loads. If it can handle that with no failures, it's good enough for me. Obviously, you will have more certainty if you shoot more, but that would be my bare minimum.
If you like the Critical Duty, you can get it in standard pressure and +P from www.sgammo.com for a really good price. Keep in mind, these are 50 round boxes.
http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/50-rd-box-9mm-hornady-critical-duty-le-135-grain-p-90225
http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/50-rd-box-9mm-hornady-critical-duty-le-135-grain-p-90225
Patrick
MSI Executive Member
I bought a fair amount of this last year and also like it, especially when suppressed. It's now hard to find outside of a few boxes at a time. I cannot remember where I got this idea from, but while searching for it a few weeks back I got the impression this is a run that comes out in October. So maybe we'll see more this Fall. Or maybe I am completely wrong.
If you got a good source, please feel free to share...
Patrick
MSI Executive Member
Agree.
The few times I carry, it is in Florida. Last trip out I had the choice between a new PM9 (9mm) and a year-old P238 (.380). They are about the same when it comes to concealment and carry the same number of rounds in an almost same-sized package, but I stuck with the smaller caliber model because I had shot it a lot more. The PM9 has never given me heartburn and it is pretty accurate (it even came with a fancy laser thing, which the Sig does not have). But the simple truth is that I feel more comfortable with the gun have fired 1000+ rounds from, rather than the one that has maybe 300.
Of course, as I get more rounds out of that PM9 I will probably carry it the few times I carry at all.
FWIW, I carried that Sig IWB all day in driving rain as I rode a bike through some not-so-nice areas on my way back home again. Even under a t-shirt, it got soaked. So did the crossbreed holster. Rain didn't bother them, at all (kydex rocks in rain, I guess). Also would say that constituted a pretty good test of the crossbreed holster - driving rain, slick body and constant pedaling with no gun movement. It all just held up. As a note, the crossbreed is useless without a belt, which I normally would not wear while biking. I would have left the whole setup home but for the areas I had to go through (several random shootings over the last few years).
NateTheShake
11B
You can find Black Talon pretty readily on gunbroker, but expect to pay double to triple the cost of anything else (last auctions I saw were around $50-60/50). It's not a bad cartridge, but as has been mentioned before it has been updated with the current Ranger T.
I do have to agree with some of the comments here regarding the "cool guy" ammo. Humans have not evolved such that we are somehow now resistant to good ole balls of lead. I do, however, feel if you haven't yet purchased and tested any self defense ammo it might be a better idea to go with some of the more modern and updated cartridges. Got a whole case of Hydra Shok laying around? Great, in most loads it works just fine and there is no need to run out and buy the latest and greatest. Only have a few boxes of FMJ target ammo? Then you might want to consider grabbing a few boxes of modern jacketed hollow-points.
For me the three loads that pretty much set the standard are:
Speer Gold Dot
Winchester Ranger T
Federal HST
In pretty much every FBI-style service pistol test these three pass with flying colors regardless of caliber.
I see minimal need for +P or +P+ loads unless you're talking about a very compact pistol which might need the extra velocity. Of course that +P and +P+ usually comes at the cost of bullet weight and all things considered heavier is going to be better. So I usually recommend the heaviest common bullet weight for each caliber with +P being more or less inconsequential again unless we're talking a super sub-compact. Keep in mind most testing at the factory or for service pistol tests use a service pistol length barrel (usually around 4-4.5") so anything shorter might lose a little velocity and benefit from a little more powder.
There are some exceptions, like the 115gr CorBon DPX for instance, but usually the lighter weight bullets either don't pass or have very poor results when compared to the same bullet design in a heavier weight. So for instance I would shy away from 115gr Speer Gold Dot in 9mm and favor a 124gr or 147gr load. Simple physics wins this one.
It seems like everyone wants to find the next wonder bullet which is fine, but if you've got something that is proven to work there is no reason to go searching for the next best thing. Spend the money on training and practice ammo.
