Let's talk self-defense ammo

[alucard0822]

I'm with Smokey, 147gr PDX1s or HSTs prefferably +p. The heavier a bullet gets, the less powder it takes to produce peak pressures, this reduces muzzle blast from unburned powder, and makes the load more efficient. Heavier bullets also have more momentum which reduces deflection and increased penetration for a given diameter. Lighter bullets can reach higher velocities, with slightly larger expansion, but velocity and energy are features that come at the expense of many more practical attributes IMO. There is a point of diminishing returns though after weight has increased past it's performance peak, where the weight is increased to such a degree, and velocity falls off so much that you end up losing performance, this is pretty much past 247gr IMO. Some of the loads can still have a respectable velocity, I have clocked standard pressure 147gr PDX1s at 1100fps in a 5" M&P, and 147gr+p HSTs at almost 1150, while still shooting nice and smooth. Shorter barrels slow them down, but being there is less powder to burn, and they get to full pressure faster, heavy bullets tend to be more efficient, with dramatically less velocity loss and muzzle flash than fast light loads like the 115+p on the market. I still get right at 1000fps with both of the 147gr loads from my 3.5" m&P compact, my little 3" PM9 manages a bit over 900fps, the velocity seems to drop a lot below 3.5" barrels in both loads, although they both seem actually under-rated, or advertised velocities are from 3.5-4" pistols, and not the usual 4.5-5" test barrels.

Of course in actual defensive use, there is so little difference between good loads and good duty calibers that it really doesn't matter much, and a hundred minor variables of shot placement, physiology, scenario, and the angles and distances will matter a lot more.

 

[ffemtreed]

I use Winchester Ranger or Hornaday Critical Duty.

 

[NateTheShake]

1st couple rounds are Corbon blue tip 9mms. Then either some Speer Gold Dots, or Winchester PDX (can't recall what I put in there after the blues). I also have a mag of old 1950's Czech steel core 9mm "just in case".

I don't understand the logic? Is that the same idea as loading a few rounds of birdshot into a shotgun?

If so I would say it's an extremely bad idea. A few facts to consider:

1. The only time you should be firing any weapon at another person is when there is absolutely no other alternative than lethal force. The courts will not give a shit that you "just meant to wound them" with your birdshot. Shoot to kill or don't shoot. That's it. Expect and intend that the only time you pull the trigger you are going to destroy whatever is on the other end. If there is even the slightest possibility the situation can be resolved without violence by all means make every effort. If lives are at stake, however, make sure theirs is the one spent and not someone else or yours.

2. Assuming #1 to be true understand that the decision to use lethal force means there is probably a very good likelihood that you or someone you care about is in immediate and life-threatening danger from your target. Having a few "wounding" shots loaded could mean the difference between stopping the threat and losing the fight.

3. The average shot to hit ratio for law enforcement engagements is 17:1. Yes, SEVENTEEN shots for every ONE hit. In the military ratio is FAR greater (something in the tens of thousands to one.) Just something to think about when loading those magical "warning" rounds.


I don't mean to just jump down your throat specifically, but every time there is a post about self-defense ammo this comes up. So my thoughts cut and dry? LOAD LETHAL AMMO IN YOUR FIREARM. IF YOU ARE SHOOTING AT SOMEONE YOU ARE INTENDING TO KILL THEM. There is no sugar-coating it to make it sound better to the limp-wristed flower-power types out there. There are very bad people who are good at violence. The only thing truly keeping them at bay are good people who are better at violence.

 

[PapiBarcelona]

Man, you guys really get into this stuff.

 

[Diogenes]

I don't understand the logic? Is that the same idea as loading a few rounds of birdshot into a shotgun?

If so I would say it's an extremely bad idea. A few facts to consider:

1. The only time you should be firing any weapon at another person is when there is absolutely no other alternative than lethal force. The courts will not give a shit that you "just meant to wound them" with your birdshot. Shoot to kill or don't shoot. That's it. Expect and intend that the only time you pull the trigger you are going to destroy whatever is on the other end. If there is even the slightest possibility the situation can be resolved without violence by all means make every effort. If lives are at stake, however, make sure theirs is the one spent and not someone else or yours.

2. Assuming #1 to be true understand that the decision to use lethal force means there is probably a very good likelihood that you or someone you care about is in immediate and life-threatening danger from your target. Having a few "wounding" shots loaded could mean the difference between stopping the threat and losing the fight.

3. The average shot to hit ratio for law enforcement engagements is 17:1. Yes, SEVENTEEN shots for every ONE hit. In the military ratio is FAR greater (something in the tens of thousands to one.) Just something to think about when loading those magical "warning" rounds.


I don't mean to just jump down your throat specifically, but every time there is a post about self-defense ammo this comes up. So my thoughts cut and dry? LOAD LETHAL ****ING AMMO IN YOUR FIREARM. IF YOU ARE SHOOTING AT SOMEONE YOU ARE INTENDING TO KILL THEM. There is no sugar-coating it to make it sound better to the limp-wristed flower-power types out there. There are very bad people who are good at violence. The only thing truly keeping them at bay are good people who are better at violence.

As harsh as this is dude is dead on. Self defense is not a game and guns aren't toys. If you arent prepared to make the decision between life and death you shouldnt carry a weapon. Invest in pepper spray or a taser.

It also irks me when I read about people carrying with low spec fmj in their glock or xd. It's like what the hell. I could understand if you had a older finicky pistol that couldn't digest jhp or handle 9mm NATO, but wwb? Really?

 

[Dogabutila]

NO. NO NO NO. You are not "intending to kill" them. That's just asking for trouble in court. All you are trying to do is get the quickest stop possible. You are trying to defend yourself. You are trying to make whoever you are shooting at decide to stop what they are doing and either fall down or decide to go away. ASAP While it may be immaterial to us if the perp dies or survives, you are not ever trying to kill anybody.

But if you don't care about the afterwards part, just go ahead and mention that you were trying to kill whoever.

 

[NateTheShake]

NO. NO NO NO. You are not "intending to kill" them. That's just asking for trouble in court. All you are trying to do is get the quickest stop possible. You are trying to defend yourself. You are trying to make whoever you are shooting at decide to stop what they are doing and either fall down or decide to go away. ASAP While it may be immaterial to us if the perp dies or survives, you are not ever trying to kill anybody.

But if you don't care about the afterwards part, just go ahead and mention that you were trying to kill whoever.

I completely understand the necessity of using somewhat legalese in explaining your intentions when shooting, but I still believe in the basic rules of firearms safety. "Never point your weapon at something you do not intend to destroy."

I argue my point about killing more because I don't think as many people are actually prepared to do such a thing. Before someone chooses a gun as their primary means of defense they need to be ready to accept the fact that it is a weapon whose sole purpose is to destroy whatever is on the receiving end.

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P GDHP. When I got my 9mm I did some research. This round has a proven track record. Is is the absolute best? I dont know- you can agonize whether the Cor-Bon DPX is better or this bullet or whatever. I'm satified if I do my job it will do its job. I just bought a bunch and then concentrated on getting better with the gun.

 

[smokey]

NO. NO NO NO. You are not "intending to kill" them. That's just asking for trouble in court. All you are trying to do is get the quickest stop possible. You are trying to defend yourself. You are trying to make whoever you are shooting at decide to stop what they are doing and either fall down or decide to go away. ASAP While it may be immaterial to us if the perp dies or survives, you are not ever trying to kill anybody.

But if you don't care about the afterwards part, just go ahead and mention that you were trying to kill whoever.

Yes, you use a firearm to stop a threat. Of course, we have a castle doctrine and civil immunity law in md that protects victims, so I'm not too worried about it if stopping a thread = killing. One correction to your post where you said you're trying to make them decide to stop and fall down or go away....There are badguys that will make a decision to run away when seeing the gun. There are those that run away when hearing a shot. There are those that don't freak out and give up until they've been hit....but there are also those that will not choose to stop, regardless of the damage you inflict on them.

For the drugged up or psychotic that will not make the decision to stop attacking, you're forced to cause the attack to stop by phsyiological reasons rather than psychological. For them there's 3 reasons they'll stop being a threat.
1) you've hit the cns- no signals to muscles means no movement. the cns is a very small, constantly moving target that's surrounded by bone. Good luck intentionally hitting it.
2) You damaged a bone structure- your muscles can contract and flail around, but if your pelvis is shattered, movement becomes difficult. Of course, they can still attack with the remaining body structures
3) Enough blood loss to make them unconscious- this takes time, but is the most likely mechanism to stop someone. To poke enough holes in things that bleed fast for them to go into shock and pass out before they successfully harm you makes it's pretty likely they'll die.


for more on how defensive ammo works, view my post here....

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=1612529&highlight=temporary#post1612529

Point being, yes...you're shooting to stop a threat. But killing someone is an awefully good way of stopping a threat. You should not be afraid of potentially killing someone that's a threat...if that's what it takes, it's what it takes. But yeah, you're goal is to end the threat, not their life.

 

[alucard0822]

I don't understand the logic? Is that the same idea as loading a few rounds of birdshot into a shotgun?

If so I would say it's an extremely bad idea. A few facts to consider:

1. The only time you should be firing any weapon at another person is when there is absolutely no other alternative than lethal force. The courts will not give a shit that you "just meant to wound them" with your birdshot. Shoot to kill or don't shoot. That's it. Expect and intend that the only time you pull the trigger you are going to destroy whatever is on the other end. If there is even the slightest possibility the situation can be resolved without violence by all means make every effort. If lives are at stake, however, make sure theirs is the one spent and not someone else or yours.

2. Assuming #1 to be true understand that the decision to use lethal force means there is probably a very good likelihood that you or someone you care about is in immediate and life-threatening danger from your target. Having a few "wounding" shots loaded could mean the difference between stopping the threat and losing the fight.

3. The average shot to hit ratio for law enforcement engagements is 17:1. Yes, SEVENTEEN shots for every ONE hit. In the military ratio is FAR greater (something in the tens of thousands to one.) Just something to think about when loading those magical "warning" rounds.


I don't mean to just jump down your throat specifically, but every time there is a post about self-defense ammo this comes up. So my thoughts cut and dry? LOAD LETHAL ****ING AMMO IN YOUR FIREARM. IF YOU ARE SHOOTING AT SOMEONE YOU ARE INTENDING TO KILL THEM. There is no sugar-coating it to make it sound better to the limp-wristed flower-power types out there. There are very bad people who are good at violence. The only thing truly keeping them at bay are good people who are better at violence.

All true. Luckily enough for us, modern defensive ammo in service calibers is EXTREMELY versatile and consistent. It can reliably expand and sufficiently penetrate through a wide variety of glass, drywall, sheetmetal, and clothing. Good HP ammo can both resist damage, or at least close up and penetrate hard barriers like glass and sheetmetal, making it actually outperform FMJ in hard penetration, but expand through softer barriers and flesh to limit overpenetration from a missed shot to some degree, they can also allow some clogging through heavy clothing to slow expanion and preserve penetration. As shown by the FBI testing results and protocol, most good ammo is AMAZINGLY consistent, to pass the test, it has to expand and penetrate 12-18" inches through bare gel, plywood, drywall, sheetmetal, autoglass, and heavy denim. This IMO absolutely rules out the need to carry "specialty" ammo like FMJ or frangible on top, or stagger different kinds, good HP outperforms frangible and FMJ by a wide margin in most scenarios. You can also have reliability issues from different ammo, so best to stick with good stuff that does everything.

This is the critical DUTY ammo, not the critical defense(that failed the FBI test miserably), the results are typical for most premium defensive ammo.

 

[Mooseman]

Hornady Zombie Max. It is the same as Critical Defense, only cheaper.

 

[OLM-Medic]

I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the ones you listed...except maybe the 115 dpx. I'd personally go for +p.

Why would you hesitate to use the corbon dpx 115gr +P? It is a great loading...

 

[diesel-man]

As harsh as this is dude is dead on. Self defense is not a game and guns aren't toys. If you arent prepared to make the decision between life and death you shouldnt carry a weapon. Invest in pepper spray or a taser.

It also irks me when I read about people carrying with low spec fmj in their glock or xd. It's like what the hell. I could understand if you had a older finicky pistol that couldn't digest jhp or handle 9mm NATO, but wwb? Really?

Hey come on, some of us are on a budget....LOL

All true. Luckily enough for us, modern defensive ammo in service calibers is EXTREMELY versatile and consistent. It can reliably expand and sufficiently penetrate through a wide variety of glass, drywall, sheetmetal, and clothing. Good HP ammo can both resist damage, or at least close up and penetrate hard barriers like glass and sheetmetal, making it actually outperform FMJ in hard penetration, but expand through softer barriers and flesh to limit overpenetration from a missed shot to some degree, they can also allow some clogging through heavy clothing to slow expanion and preserve penetration. As shown by the FBI testing results and protocol, most good ammo is AMAZINGLY consistent, to pass the test, it has to expand and penetrate 12-18" inches through bare gel, plywood, drywall, sheetmetal, autoglass, and heavy denim. This IMO absolutely rules out the need to carry "specialty" ammo like FMJ or frangible on top, or stagger different kinds, good HP outperforms frangible and FMJ by a wide margin in most scenarios. You can also have reliability issues from different ammo, so best to stick with good stuff that does everything.

This is the critical DUTY ammo, not the critical defense(that failed the FBI test miserably), the results are typical for most premium defensive ammo.

Critical Duty ammo looks like good stuff. I persaonally am in the heavy for caliber camp...as opposed to lite and fast.

 

[Sirex]

I don't understand the logic? Is that the same idea as loading a few rounds of birdshot into a shotgun?

If so I would say it's an extremely bad idea. A few facts to consider:

1. The only time you should be firing any weapon at another person is when there is absolutely no other alternative than lethal force. The courts will not give a shit that you "just meant to wound them" with your birdshot. Shoot to kill or don't shoot. That's it. Expect and intend that the only time you pull the trigger you are going to destroy whatever is on the other end. If there is even the slightest possibility the situation can be resolved without violence by all means make every effort. If lives are at stake, however, make sure theirs is the one spent and not someone else or yours.

2. Assuming #1 to be true understand that the decision to use lethal force means there is probably a very good likelihood that you or someone you care about is in immediate and life-threatening danger from your target. Having a few "wounding" shots loaded could mean the difference between stopping the threat and losing the fight.

3. The average shot to hit ratio for law enforcement engagements is 17:1. Yes, SEVENTEEN shots for every ONE hit. In the military ratio is FAR greater (something in the tens of thousands to one.) Just something to think about when loading those magical "warning" rounds.


I don't mean to just jump down your throat specifically, but every time there is a post about self-defense ammo this comes up. So my thoughts cut and dry? LOAD LETHAL ****ING AMMO IN YOUR FIREARM. IF YOU ARE SHOOTING AT SOMEONE YOU ARE INTENDING TO KILL THEM. There is no sugar-coating it to make it sound better to the limp-wristed flower-power types out there. There are very bad people who are good at violence. The only thing truly keeping them at bay are good people who are better at violence.

Okay, so then don't use it.

 

[Indiana Jones]

I have never had a problem with any hornady self-defense ammo.... I have shot close to a 1000 rounds with it. I had a few FTE on my 1911 at one point but that was my 1911's problem.

That and your limp wristed fairy ass sodomite grip. I have Hornady TAP, Remington Golden Saber and Federal Hydrashock.

 

[NateTheShake]

Okay, so then don't use it.

Ok I'll admit I had a particularly irritating day at work when I posted that so I was probably a little more heated than necessary. However, like I said, I wasn't trying to flame you for your chosen load specifically. I merely try to throw out my own personal $.02 when it comes to self-defense.

As I said if any alternative can be made other than pulling the trigger by all means take it and hope you never have to live with someone's blood on your hands. Good or bad it's never easy. If there is no alternative though your intention should be stopping the threat immediately and not hoping you'll get a second or third shot.

Your self-defense planning should involve some variation of the three-S's (shout, show, shoot) but might not require all three or may require circling back a few times between the first two. Let's say you've got someone in your house in the middle of the night. Shout "Stop" while showing your firearm. If the invader chooses to stop or run away good job, you have used non-lethal force to protect your home, life, and family. If they decide to turn around and make a run at you it's time for shoot. At that moment you are beyond warning shots and less-than-lethal projectiles. The point is the first two are more than enough warning to tell that person "you should stop what you are doing, I am armed and prepared to respond." You don't need to fire in the air or impart a flesh wound to let them know your intentions.

I can tell you from firsthand experience a loud shout and display of a firearm crosses all language barriers. The person will know whatever they are doing is something they should probably stop or abandon with haste. It's the times they decide to play the game that you will want to be damn sure you're the better armed and better trained.

It's your choice ultimately, but do you really want to give anyone the upper hand? Remember: the only unfair fight is the one you lose.

 

[BlueHeeler]

Shot placement, that is all that matters.

You can spent a million hours looking at internet research on ballistic data by people shooting milk jugs in their back yard. There is a degree of irrelevancy.

My HD guns are loaded with 9mm 147gr+P, .45 Golden Saber, and 12 gauge Centurion. I use those loads because I know they will never fail as tested and I can shoot them well. All are man stoppers with follow up shot capability. There is no simple answer of the best defensive ammo. You have to find what works for you.

 

[Sirex]

He just asked what we used, I am not advocating any brand. I have a reason for the ammo I have loaded based on the possible first shot direction, and minimizing collateral damage. While eliminating the threat is maybe the most important, what lies beyond the most likely place of engagement is just as if not more important. Just my opinion. feel free to choose your ammo based on your situation.

Edit; found the box last night. They are Corbon Blue Gasers. Not really a shot shell, until it impacts something. I am hoping 2 layers of drywall, a walnut dresser and clothing will stop it should I miss the first shot.

 

[swinokur]

I decided to go shoot more at the range and stop hanging out as much on MDS. Shot placement trumps everything IMO.

More range time. More range time.

 

[jimbobborg]

I decided to go shoot more at the range and stop hanging out as much on MDS. Shot placement trumps everything IMO.

More range time. More range time.

Shooting a static target at the range is fine. As soon as you are facing a dynamic target/multiple targets under stress, all of that goes out the window. Just ask my wife. She can shoot the center ring out of a B2 target at 10 yards. 6 bowling pins at 10 yards? She gets maybe half of them knocked down when she has 10 rounds in her pistol. She emptied two 17 round magazines shooting 6 bowling pins and got six of them down. Same gun, different matches. It gets even better when YOU move. It's hard enough with a rifle with a red dot, try it with a handgun.