HB1302-"The Neighborhood Bag Lady Can Take Your Guns" bill

[44man]

Firearms and ammunition only.



If this happens to you (service in person, at least, you might get lucky if they serve you by mail and don't show up to take the guns right away) there will be no "ahead of time." It will be "Mr. Jim, we are here to serve an Interim ERPO on you. Surrender your guns now."



Thanks for relaying your experience in the field on this. This is going to be a shitshow for everyone, but I feel for the cop who is told "This guy is dangerous and has guns. Now go take them all away because he said something scary this one time."



They are not liable. As Mark pointed out, the law only says how they "should" be transported (if cases are available) and that they may not be marked. It doesn't say anything about where they will be stored, what condition they must be kept or returned in, none of it.

sounds like a person in that position should tell whomever would be in possession of said firearms should make a call and make it clear that if anything ever happened that said firearms were a gift to the person in possession, one second before said event occurred.

and md sucks.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Folks need to read the Bill.

5–608.
(A) (1) A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHO TAKES POSSESSION OF A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION IN ACCORDANCE WITH AN EXTREME RISK PROTECTIVE ORDER SHALL, AT THE TIME THE FIREARM OR AMMUNITION IS SURRENDERED OR SEIZED:

(I) ISSUE A RECEIPT IDENTIFYING, BY MAKE, MODEL, AND SERIAL NUMBER, ALL FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION THAT HAVE BEEN SURRENDERED OR SEIZED;
(II) PROVIDE A COPY OF THE RECEIPT TO THE RESPONDENT;
(III) RETAIN A COPY OF THE RECEIPT; AND
(IV) PROVIDE INFORMATION TO THE RESPONDENT ON THE PROCESS FOR RETAKING POSSESSION OF THE FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION ON THE EXPIRATION OR TERMINATION OF THE ORDER.

Thank you. Appreciated.

But there is no mention on proof of condition prior to the seizing taking place. The police can take a 100% firearm and return a dented up, dinged up, and scratched up firearm. Because condition was not documented.

Are gun owners now required to go out and spend hundreds of dollars on padded cases? So we'll have adequate protection for every single firearm we own. In the off chance that we'll get 1302ed one day.

This is why Governor Hogan needs to fully examine this bill and all of it shortcomings. I really hope his staff is following this thread.


and md sucks.

 

[dgapilot]

Except the ERPO is not a criminal prosecution. It is a “civil” proceeding although there isn’t anything civil about it.


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So the ERPO is a civil action, but failure to comply with it is a criminal action. funny how that works.

 

[Allen65]

What about Flintlock firearms?

What about Percussion Lock firearms?

What about Cap-N-Ball revolvers?

What about firearms that fall under Antique status?

Everything I just listed is not, by definition, by ATF regulations, a firearm.

IANAL, but HB1302 explicitly references MD Public Safety Article 5-101's definition of firearm. 5-101 says:

h. FIREARM --
(1) "Firearm" means:
(i) a weapon that expels, is designed to expel, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; or
(ii) the frame or receiver of such a weapon.

There is no exception to that for antiques in what would seem an all-encompassing definition. Antique firearms are also defined in 5-101, by referencing 4-201, which is pretty similar to the Federal definition. But whether that is truly a separate definition for HB1302 purposes, a real lawyer would need to chime in with an answer.

 

[zoostation]

I understand that. What I’m getting at is, does an ERPO alone act as a search warrant or does LEO inability to serve the order automatically turn into grounds to obtain a charging document and search warrant?


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It appears to me from the way the law is written the police can get a search warrant for a respondent's residence even if the order has not been served, as long as the respondent had an opportunity to surrender the firearms and failed to. I guess it depends on how the phrase "subject to an order" is interpreted. How often they will when folks refuse to open the door is a big question. Search warrants are a lot of man-hours, even simple ones. I am sure Grandmom's Devouring Appetizers will be jumping up and down on their chubby little ankles screeching that police serve warrants on every single respondent who doesn't answer. And in places like Montgomery and Baltimore Counties I bet it will be happening a lot. In the red counties that have actual police chiefs and sheriffs instead of old puppets the approach will probably be saner.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

IANAL, but HB1302 explicitly references MD Public Safety Article 5-101's definition of firearm. 5-101 says:

h. FIREARMS
(1) "Firearm" means:
(i) a weapon that expels, is designed to expel, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; or
(ii) the frame or receiver of such a weapon.

There is no exception to that definition for antiques.

I can hear the state now: Lay still and it won't hurt so much.

 

[smkranz]

So the ERPO is a civil action, but failure to comply with it is a criminal action. funny how that works.

As Ron Smith would have said, “Welcome to Absurdistan.”


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[ddeanjohnson]

expansive definitions

What about Flintlock rifles and pistols and shotguns? What about Percussion Lock rifles and pistols and shotguns?
What about Cap-N-Ball revolvers? What about rifles, pistols, and shotguns that fall under Antique status? Everything I just listed is not, by definition, by ATF regulations, a firearm.

Federal definitions do not govern here. Everything that you have mentioned, and more, is covered by the definitions found in the bill itself (House Bill 1302 Enrolled). Specifically, on page 28, line 25, the scope of "firearm" subject to seizure is governed by a cross-reference to a provision in current Maryland law, Public Safety Article, Title 5, Section 5-101(h)(1):

"Firearm" means: (i) a weapon that expels, is designed to expel, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; or (ii) the frame or receiver of such a weapon. (2) "Firearm" includes a starter gun.​

On page 28, line 21, the bill cross-references Public Safety Article, Title 5, Section 5-133.1, to define "ammunition" subject to seizure, as follows:

Ammunition defined (a) In this section, "ammunition" means a cartridge, shell, or any other device containing explosive or incendiary material designed and intended for use in a firearm.​

 

[iH8DemLibz]

^^^Hide your potato guns.^^^

 

[Allen65]

]

On page 28, line 21, the bill cross-references Public Safety Article, Title 5, Section 5-133.1, to define "ammunition" subject to seizure, as follows:

Ammunition defined (a) In this section, "ammunition" means a cartridge, shell, or any other device containing explosive or incendiary material designed and intended for use in a firearm.​

Content deleted.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

ditto.

 

[ironpony]

This reminds me of an incidence that happen a couple years ago and was talked about quite a bit Here.
IIRC, 90 yr old man told his daughter to get out of his house during an argument, he barricaded himself in HIS bedroom. She left, Police came, his daughter let them into HIS house, they went into his bedroom and shot him dead. He fired no shots. My thoughts were to wait him out (90 yr. old). General consensus here was that the police were correct in their actions, while he just wanted to be left alone.

These actions are soon to be easily invoked here in our state ... legally.

 

[44man]

so if you are a hood rat from Baltimore who doesn't own the cloths he's wearing let alone has a gun registered or ever purchased legally in his name and someone swears out a 1302 on him but since there are no guns ever registered to him and when they 1302 at his place of residence and don't find anything what then? or do they even go since he never legally purchased a gun? how would a judge look at that situation? what would they be looking for ? what would the search warrant say? searching for something he doesn't own?

yep, seems more like a confiscation scheme the more I think about it.

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

Folks need to read the Bill.

5–608.
(A) (1) A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHO TAKES POSSESSION OF A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION IN ACCORDANCE WITH AN EXTREME RISK PROTECTIVE ORDER SHALL, AT THE TIME THE FIREARM OR AMMUNITION IS SURRENDERED OR SEIZED:

(I) ISSUE A RECEIPT IDENTIFYING, BY MAKE, MODEL, AND SERIAL NUMBER, ALL FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION THAT HAVE BEEN SURRENDERED OR SEIZED;
(II) PROVIDE A COPY OF THE RECEIPT TO THE RESPONDENT;
(III) RETAIN A COPY OF THE RECEIPT; AND
(IV) PROVIDE INFORMATION TO THE RESPONDENT ON THE PROCESS FOR RETAKING POSSESSION OF THE FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION ON THE EXPIRATION OR TERMINATION OF THE ORDER.

That will take a long time at my house.

 

[newmuzzleloader]

For ignorant wretches like me:

http://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/43const/html/00dec.html

Oh but we as gun owners are not being prosecuted. We are having our lawful property seized "as a safety precaution". If and when they decide to prosecute then the Md. Constitution will be followed.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

so if you are a hood rat from Baltimore who doesn't own the cloths he's wearing let alone has a gun registered or ever purchased legally in his name and someone swears out a 1302 on him but since there are no guns ever registered to him and when they 1302 at his place of residence and don't find anything what then? or do they even go since he never legally purchased a gun? how would a judge look at that situation? what would they be looking for ? what would the search warrant say? searching for something he doesn't own?

yep, seems more like a confiscation scheme the more I think about it.

Most excellent questions.

Send them to the man you know and love and eagerly await voting for again.

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

After reading the constitution of Maryland, I see many violations. One that sticks out me is the lack of participation in establishing the House version of this bill. Thanks Eruby for the link.

 

[44man]

Most excellent questions.

Send them to the man you know and love and eagerly await voting for again.

I have sent him, and everyone else that I can think of including our sherriff and county commissioners and only steve Waugh responds, and hes the only rep down here who voted correctly everytime. and I am talking at least a hundred emails, and yes many are just duplicates sent just because.

I no longer get responses from our governor and sometimes my emails bounce back.

if he signs this bill and the bump stock bill he shouldn't be elected dog catcher anywhere anymore.

 

[newmuzzleloader]

Folks need to read the Bill.

5–608.
(A) (1) A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHO TAKES POSSESSION OF A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION IN ACCORDANCE WITH AN EXTREME RISK PROTECTIVE ORDER SHALL, AT THE TIME THE FIREARM OR AMMUNITION IS SURRENDERED OR SEIZED:

(I) ISSUE A RECEIPT IDENTIFYING, BY MAKE, MODEL, AND SERIAL NUMBER, ALL FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION THAT HAVE BEEN SURRENDERED OR SEIZED;
(II) PROVIDE A COPY OF THE RECEIPT TO THE RESPONDENT;
(III) RETAIN A COPY OF THE RECEIPT; AND
(IV) PROVIDE INFORMATION TO THE RESPONDENT ON THE PROCESS FOR RETAKING POSSESSION OF THE FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION ON THE EXPIRATION OR TERMINATION OF THE ORDER.

Thank You. Everyone is in an uproar over this and you are patiently doing your best to answer our questions. Again, Thank You.

 

[zoostation]

Wife has a good friend who is in her mid-sixties and had a 30-something year old daughter living with them who is a POS. Abuser of scrips and who knows what else. In and out of rehab, running all night or gone suddenly for days with assorted druggie boy turds, and nasty as hell to her parents who do everything to try to support her. Mrs. Zoo has even heard it herself when she calls her mother up and screams at her for being an "f-ing bitch." And complicating matters is the fact she has a young child, aka the grandson of these poor parents. (and surprise, no father around anywhere) Which puts the parents in a lose-lose situation where they can't kick her out without her taking the poor kid to God knows where or who.

So anyways, one night Crackzilla completely loses it and assaults the father with a lamp. Leading her parents to finally call the cops, and she is arrested for assault. She gets bound over for trial, parents finally decide to kick her out, and they file for custody of their grandson, which they get.

Meanwhile the Dragon Princess is calling them from jail and demanding these "motherf**rs" bail her out, which they don't (although they struggle with it because despite everything they still love her). When she finally does get out on recognizance, she opposes their petition for custody, but loses. She's now continuing to bounce from one guy's house to another and constantly breaking her young son's heart as she promises to see him every few days and almost always FTA's.

Now here's the kicker that ties this to what we're discussing. The father of this woman is a big time gun collector. Do you doubt for even a minute if this person had had this law available to her that she would not have used it to blackmail and harass her parents. I don't doubt it for a second. And what she got to lose? Not a lawsuit. She's got nothing to sue for, just like many of the people that file false complaints. Perjury charges? She's been locked up before, she's not so stupid she doesn't understand that nobody can prove perjury if she says that her father threatened her in private but nobody else heard.