HB 819 HAndgun Review Board

[teratos]

Is an ALJ decision binding as case law would be, or would that require an appeal to and decision at the Circuit Court level ? It seems to be yet another way for the antis to put political pressure on the HPRB by using an ALJ as a threat as they are political appointments, or are they ?

Good question. I don't know squat about ALJ's.

 

[danb]

This could be used as a delaying tactic.

But judges are going to be far more even handed about applying the actual law, And they will be far more in tune to following prior precedents.

MDSP Will not be appealing these willy-nilly. Because if they appeal, and lose, it will set a bad precedent and they know

 

[mcbruzdzinski]

Is an ALJ decision binding as case law would be, or would that require an appeal to and decision at the Circuit Court level ? It seems to be yet another way for the antis to put political pressure on the HPRB by using an ALJ as a threat as they are political appointments, or are they ?

In Maryland, they are appointed. The Governor appoints the Chief Administrative Law Judge (with advice and consent of the Senate) who then choses the Administrative Law Judges under him/her (

Md. Code Ann., State Govt. § 9-1600 et seq., "Office of Administrative Hearings.")​

 

[teratos]

This could be used as a delaying tactic.

But judges are going to be far more even handed about applying the actual law, And they will be far more in tune to following prior precedents.

MDSP Will not be appealing these willy-nilly. Because if they appeal, and lose, it will set a bad precedent and they know

Could be a delaying tactic. Either side can appeal. Possible scenario...someone applies based on self defense. Say, a mom. She is denied, HPRB denies, ALJ denies. Now in the hands of the 4th Circuit. They have screwed us before, but what if they say self defense is all the reason anyone needs? Boom. MD is shall-issue.

 

[danb]

Could be a delaying tactic. Either side can appeal. Possible scenario...someone applies based on self defense. Say, a mom. She is denied, HPRB denies, ALJ denies. Now in the hands of the 4th Circuit. They have screwed us before, but what if they say self defense is all the reason anyone needs? Boom. MD is shall-issue.

Right.

Svherr and snowden were decided before Heller and before the 4th circuit decision and woolard. Strictly speaking MDSP is not following the law now.

 

[ironpony]

So if I apply tomorrow (Business) I'm looking at next year or longer to get through this obstacle course ...
in other news the damn ground hog was right!

 

[Schipperke]

this just sounds like more ******** to restrict peoples rights and to delay and delay and delay as long as possible all the while being able to say we are working on your permitting process until it takes years and years to get thru all the ********

That's what is looks like. They've just added another layer after HPRB. If MSP takes a HPRB loss to ALJ, I don't think the ALJ sustaining the HPRB decision for the applicant sets any harmful precedent. If you are the applicant and get overturned by ALJ, now it is up to you to appeal to Circuit Court. Great system for MSP. Remember too, that if MSP takes their loss to the ALJ, it's like your HPRB hearing never happened. The ALJ is not looking to see if HPRB made any errors, if I'm understanding "De Novo" hearing correctly.

 

[welder516]

Been since Dec. that I mailed my appeal papers and still don't have a date of hearing . It is almost like my name fell off a list or never put on a list . Or maybe put on the chit-list

 

[BeoBill]

Right.

Svherr and snowden were decided before Heller and before the 4th circuit decision and woolard. Strictly speaking MDSP is not following the law now.

And this is news how???

 

[songlaw]

Don’t get your Circuits mixed up

Could be a delaying tactic. Either side can appeal. Possible scenario...someone applies based on self defense. Say, a mom. She is denied, HPRB denies, ALJ denies. Now in the hands of the 4th Circuit. They have screwed us before, but what if they say self defense is all the reason anyone needs? Boom. MD is shall-issue.

Teratos:
From the decision of the ALJ, the appeal is to the Circuit Court (state level trial court-every county has one). Don’t confuse that with the 4th Circuit, which is a FEDERAL Appeals Court.

 

[teratos]

Teratos:
From the decision of the ALJ, the appeal is to the Circuit Court (state level trial court-every county has one). Don’t confuse that with the 4th Circuit, which is a FEDERAL Appeals Court.

Ah. Thanks. I wondered why it would go to the 4th Circuit.

 

[rambling_one]

Ah. Thanks. I wondered why it would go to the 4th Circuit.

Understandable mistake, Doc. You were just thinking how swell other 4th Circuit decisions have gone our way.

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

Interesting. They are putting in another layer and essentially making a decision of the HPRB even less relevant by making an appeal to the next level much quicker and easier. A de novo appeal means the proceeding is completely new (as opposed to reviewing the corrrectness of the HPRB's decision). Witnesses have to come to testify, you can make the same or completely different legal arguments. There are formal codified rules for discovery, evidence and other procedure for administrative hearings. A de novo appeal to an ALJ will be much, much cheaper than a record appeal to circuit court.

A few downsides for us: adds another layer which increases time for a licensee. Have to go through HPRB first. Can't go directly to ALJ
I actually see a couple of downsides for MSP with this but I am not going to post them here until the bill passes or session ends.

I do a lot of proceedings in front of ALJs. They are state employees (not appointees) and there are about 63 of them that go all over the state. They are like any other group of judges. Most try to follow the law. Some are better than others.

 

[dblas]

Could be a delaying tactic. Either side can appeal. Possible scenario...someone applies based on self defense. Say, a mom. She is denied, HPRB denies, ALJ denies. Now in the hands of the 4th Circuit. They have screwed us before, but what if they say self defense is all the reason anyone needs? Boom. MD is shall-issue.

Ummm, NO.

MSP denies.
Appeal to HPRB, HPRB denies
Appeal to ALF, ALJ denies
Appeal to county circuit court in county of residence of applicant.
County Circuit Court Denies, either Appeal the Maryland Court of Special Appeals, or Appeal to Federal District Court for Maryland.

 

[teratos]

Ummm, NO.

MSP denies.
Appeal to HPRB, HPRB denies
Appeal to ALF, ALJ denies
Appeal to county circuit court in county of residence of applicant.
County Circuit Court Denies, either Appeal the Maryland Court of Special Appeals, or Appeal to Federal District Court for Maryland.

Already been addressed.

 

[buellsfurn]

so when you get to the ALJ level mo money mo money mo money ?

 

[ironpony]

Is there any reason for MDSP not to appeal any and all HPRB favorable decisions?

and yup, mo money! like the HQL scheme.

 

[Mark75H]

Is there any reason for MDSP not to appeal any and all HPRB favorable decisions?

and yup, mo money! like the HQL scheme.

Yes, the possibility of the entire G&S scheme being overturned. The more possible cases, the more the possiblity of failure to persist.

 

[ComeGet]

Interesting. They are putting in another layer and essentially making a decision of the HPRB even less relevant by making an appeal to the next level much quicker and easier. A de novo appeal means the proceeding is completely new (as opposed to reviewing the corrrectness of the HPRB's decision). Witnesses have to come to testify, you can make the same or completely different legal arguments. There are formal codified rules for discovery, evidence and other procedure for administrative hearings. A de novo appeal to an ALJ will be much, much cheaper than a record appeal to circuit court.

A few downsides for us: adds another layer which increases time for a licensee. Have to go through HPRB first. Can't go directly to ALJ
I actually see a couple of downsides for MSP with this but I am not going to post them here until the bill passes or session ends.

I do a lot of proceedings in front of ALJs. They are state employees (not appointees) and there are about 63 of them that go all over the state. They are like any other group of judges. Most try to follow the law. Some are better than others.

Sounds to me like they're getting rid of the HPRB without actually getting rid of it. As an added bonus to them, they get more delaying tactics out of it, plus more expense to the applicant.

With this move, they avoid the shitstorm that would follow actually disbanding the HPRB.

Pretty brilliant move from their perspective, in all truth.

 

[Allen65]

With this move, they avoid the shitstorm that would follow actually disbanding the HPRB.

99.995% of Marylanders have no idea what the HPRB is or does. Of those, probably 50% want it gone b/c in its current incarnation, it has the temerity to comply with the actual law as interpreted by the Woollard Decision court. That makes for a sh*t tempest in a dollhouse teapot. Unfortunately.