DL copied when buying gun

[Kinbote]

Engage Armament, I'm not anywhere around you and have never been to your shop. I can see where you might be concerned, and if nothing else, you've learned something about the law along with me. I did see the comments you made about the BW and half-size and I haven't said I doubt you or that BW/half-size copying is illegal.

The point I have made from the start is that it is not a legal requirement for the customer to have his DL copied. Therefore, I think the customer should be informed of that fact by the FFL before his license is copied. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. Not trying to trip you up or anything, but if a customer just politely refused to allow his DL to be copied, would you refuse the sale?

I did make the comment that if I couldn't beat 'em I'd join 'em and "curry favor with our bureaucratic overlords by informing on others for a reward"; I thought in the context it was clear I was mocking a certain mindset obviously contrary to my own but if it caused you concern or worry I apologize.

Clandestine, I shouldn't have to ask someone if they are going to creep off and copy my DL while I fill out paperwork. That is the height of absurdity. I've never seen a sign in a gun shop saying it is their policy to copy DL's but I've never been in yours. Maybe you do have one and maybe you tell everyone buying a gun that as part of your policy you plan to copy it. I mentioned several posts back that is all I wanted, so it sounds as if now you are agreeing with me.

Jawn, I agree with you for the most part, although I don't think I've expressed any hostility to FFL's in general or to FFL's who are upfront and honest about DL's. As I said way back, if someone wants a copy and makes it clear it is not a legal requirement, that's fine by me. Part of the reason this state is so screwed up, as you noted, is that people have become too accustomed to just giving up to go along with every new rule and regulation.

 

[RedViperinMD]

Part of the reason this state is so screwed up, as you noted, is that people have become too accustomed to just giving up to go along with every new rule and regulation.

Couldn't disagree more. The entire and only reason that MD is so screwed-up is 80% of the voters are semi-functional retards and who do you think they elect? More semi-functional retards. When you're part of the unfortunate 20%, you have no choice in anything, except where to shop and you should definitely exercise that freedom. Your logic that every step of everything needs to be explained to a customer is a direct result of the 80% mentality.

 

[Kinbote]

Red Viper, the "tricking" is when I am in a store filling out reams of paperwork and the clerk asks for my license. I thought it was so they could copy something down for their reams of paperwork. Then when I'm finishing up, I look down and see a copy of my DL there on the desk. I used to buy a fair number of weapons but I'm not familiar with all the steps in this new blizzard of paper they put on us a few years back. I never had handed my license over to a clerk like that at the other two places I usually buy guns, so I came here and posted my question.

I really didn't think it would cause such an uproar, but it has answered my question pretty well, so I appreciate the help from everyone. I certainly don't mind if people disagree with my views and I don't object to defending my position if someone else disagrees with it, and I have time to kill right now. So it's all good from where I stand.

 

[Kinbote]

Red Viper, I think it's a federal requirement that every step of the 4473 be explained to every customer, although I know I don't object if the FFL wants to skip it. I don't think that means FFL's should take liberties with DL's. Just explain why they want it and let the customer choose what he wants to do.

 

[RedViperinMD]

I'd never hand my license to anyone unless I'm aware of what they're doing with it and I tend to ask questions, but that's just me.

 

[Kinbote]

Red Viper, everyone else on your side of the issue says the license is no big deal, the information is available elsewhere, it's not a big deal; are you the sole exception who takes it seriously?

I did not randomly hand my license off to some dude on the street. The guy was filling out my paperwork and asked to see it. I've handed it to every FFL I've ever bought a gun from, so it was a reasonable request. I had never heard of anyone copying a license before, so it did not immediately spring to mind that he was going to go copy it.

 

[virtus]

Red Viper, the "tricking" is when I am in a store filling out reams of paperwork and the clerk asks for my license. I thought it was so they could copy something down for their reams of paperwork. Then when I'm finishing up, I look down and see a copy of my DL there on the desk.

...Obviously they were trying to deceive you . I just don't get why you are so upset. Did they try to deny you the sale when you asked to have the copy?

 

[smokey]

Now that you use the computerized system does it just scan the info from the DL?

i wish...nahh, it's not that easy yet. The computer pops up the field boxes of the 4473 and the customer types in the data required. For the boxes asking for city/state/country, the system uses a list system the customer chooses the correct one from. If the fields for legal transfer aren't met(i had a guy today click "yes", that he was a felon) it automatically puts "lost sale" on top.

Once you're done putting in the data, it brings up a PDF of the 4473 that you print off and have the customer sign as normal, and then commence in calling in the NICS check. I like it a lot because it completely gets rid of errors due to penmanship and forces a customer to put in an ACTUAL city that exists. How many PG people do you have that don't know what city they were born in?(cheverly). The big part about it that i DONT like is that now your firearm information is very accessable should someone hack into the system. It's easier to steal a gig or two of PDF files than it is to steal dozens of boxes of paper 4473's. ALso, from time to time the computers act up...paper doesn't act up. Overall i'd say it is a big plus. The state paperwork is handled the same way as always and isn't automated yet.



Kinbote, i thought of something entirely new for you to throw a tantrum about....when you walk into almost all stores, they video tape you and store the data without ever telling you. If you've ever been to basspro, we've got your image walking around the store burned onto a dvd somewhere in the back. just thought you'd like to complain about that and throw empty legal threats around some more.

 

[smokey]

Red Viper, everyone else on your side of the issue says the license is no big deal, the information is available elsewhere, it's not a big deal; are you the sole exception who takes it seriously?

I did not randomly hand my license off to some dude on the street. The guy was filling out my paperwork and asked to see it. I've handed it to every FFL I've ever bought a gun from, so it was a reasonable request. I had never heard of anyone copying a license before, so it did not immediately spring to mind that he was going to go copy it.

they also copy your bank statements/utility bills and resident alien card if you're an imigrant alien. thought u'd like to know about that too

 

[Kinbote]

No, I didn't know if it was the law or not. I really was thinking more about the gun, to be honest. Once I got home I started wondering about it and figured I'd see if was part of some new regulation. Turns out it seems to be a widespread practice, although a lot of people posted on here that their FFL's don't do it.

The FFL was a decent fellow, I don't think he was going to use the copy to take out a line of credit cards in my name or anything like that, and I've deliberately not mentioned the store name, so I don't think I've acted all that upset. This has been a pretty mild-mannered and respectful thread so far and should probably be used as an example of proper internet etiquette. I don't think a single person has even posted anything in all caps or challenged anyone to meet for a confrontation. To tell the truth, it's kind of a let-down compared to some of the more exciting threads in here.

 

[smokey]

No, I didn't know if it was the law or not. I really was thinking more about the gun, to be honest. Once I got home I started wondering about it and figured I'd see if was part of some new regulation. Turns out it seems to be a widespread practice, although a lot of people posted on here that their FFL's don't do it.

The FFL was a decent fellow, I don't think he was going to use the copy to take out a line of credit cards in my name or anything like that, and I've deliberately not mentioned the store name, so I don't think I've acted all that upset. This has been a pretty mild-mannered and respectful thread so far and should probably be used as an example of proper internet etiquette. I don't think a single person has even posted anything in all caps or challenged anyone to meet for a confrontation. To tell the truth, it's kind of a let-down compared to some of the more exciting threads in here.

C...A....P...S.....CAPS....CAPS...CAPS!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[virtus]

No, I didn't know if it was the law or not. I really was thinking more about the gun, to be honest. Once I got home I started wondering about it and figured I'd see if was part of some new regulation. Turns out it seems to be a widespread practice, although a lot of people posted on here that their FFL's don't do it.

The FFL was a decent fellow, I don't think he was going to use the copy to take out a line of credit cards in my name or anything like that, and I've deliberately not mentioned the store name, so I don't think I've acted all that upset. This has been a pretty mild-mannered and respectful thread so far and should probably be used as an example of proper internet etiquette. I don't think a single person has even posted anything in all caps or challenged anyone to meet for a confrontation. To tell the truth, it's kind of a let-down compared to some of the more exciting threads in here.

WATCH IT BUDDY, OR THERE WILL BE TROUBLE! I'm just giving you a hard time.

I can't help but feel that there was no "trickery". It's obvious that they were not trying to be secretive about copying your license. If you had an issue with it, that would have been the time to mention it and see where it went. Also, it's not like they lied to you and said that it was law to make a copy. You weren't sure about the law, and you failed to ask on the spot.

If you don't think there is any reason for them to make a copy, we will agree to disagree. No, it's not law. BUT, if I had to undergo the scrutiny that they are forced to, I would want to cover my hiney too.

And I agree, it is nice to have a respectful conversation/debate even when people just aren't going to see eye to eye

 

[Funbrit]

I think we all have our favorite FFL's that we patronize over another FFL.
Engage is my preferred shop, i have purchased 4 or so rifles from Andy over the last year and half and they are only 10 minutes from my home which is a bonus.
During each of those transactions my DL was copied by Andy and placed in front of me to accompany the paperwork and not once did it raise a concern for me.
I agree with others, it is duplicated information that is already on the 4473 with the exception of the photo.
I always had the opportunity to question Andy why he copied my DL and i have never done so because it is as i said, he has all the information anyway from the forms.
Now Andy has explained why Engage feels it necessary to do so and I being a customer of Engage are comfortable with them doing this.
I believe if it helps him and his business deal with all the bureaucracy of the ATF and possibly issues for me if something is illegible on paperwork then that definitely is a valid reason and a policy of theirs that i will gladly participate in.
I for one will jump to the defense of Engage, they are good people and a good shop to deal with, if you feel that giving your DL is not for you then that is your choice but it is not right how Engage was treated in regards to there policy and to boot, these people have not ever patronized Engage so to chastise Engage is wrong and unfair.

 

[Kinbote]

Smokey0118, that almost looks like an MOS code, but most 01's don't put them on their profiles the way 03's tend to.

Does Bass Pro sell Colts?

 

[Kinbote]

Funbrit, I never once criticized or chastised or spoke in any negative way to Engage Armament. He (or them) seems like a very polite and responsible fellow and I apologized if he thought I was really planning to turn him in for a bounty.

 

[StantonCree]

I think we all have our favorite FFL's that we patronize over another FFL.
Engage is my preferred shop, i have purchased 4 or so rifles from Andy over the last year and half and they are only 10 minutes from my home which is a bonus.
During each of those transactions my DL was copied by Andy and placed in front of me to accompany the paperwork and not once did it raise a concern for me.
I agree with others, it is duplicated information that is already on the 4473 with the exception of the photo.
I always had the opportunity to question Andy why he copied my DL and i have never done so because it is as i said, he has all the information anyway from the forms.
Now Andy has explained why Engage feels it necessary to do so and I being a customer of Engage are comfortable with them doing this.
I believe if it helps him and his business deal with all the bureaucracy of the ATF and possibly issues for me if something is illegible on paperwork then that definitely is a valid reason and a policy of theirs that i will gladly participate in.
I for one will jump to the defense of Engage, they are good people and a good shop to deal with, if you feel that giving your DL is not for you then that is your choice but it is not right how Engage was treated in regards to there policy and to boot, these people have not ever patronized Engage so to chastise Engage is wrong and unfair.

+200!!

 

[davsco]

from what i've read from skimming thru this thread, seems one or some Dealers are copying drivers licenses etc to CYA and keep proof they indeed reviewed the credentials needed for them to hand over a firearm to a buyer. Not because it is a fed or state law.

i think it's incumbent on the Dealer to disclose this to the buyer. No one really wants more of their personal info laying around in someone else's file cabinet than legally necessary.

but i can see why the dealer would want to do this, and with disclosure to me, i'd accept that. would be nice if the dealer could confirm their file cabinets have security similar to that used for their firearms...

unfortunately vendors across the board do stuff somewhat deceptively to the detriment of customers. called the motorcycle shop and they quoted $30 to change out a street bike tire. After it was done, they added a 'standard' $6 shop mat'ls charge. and i bought some stuff at a gun show and the guy added in 3% without disclosing it and no signs anywhere. if i didn't do the math i never would have caught it.

all customers want is if a vendor is going to do or charge something, just disclose it upfront.