CCW and the law.

[Merlin]

Not to my knowledge. always said ENCLOSED AFAIK.

I must be mistaken. But I can tell you that during one of these "case" discussions I did call down to the had gun section to see what they had to say and I used the "secure case" term. They do not have a clue (as I clearly didn't), that "secure" is not in the law as you pointed out. They just told me they did not have the first clue what was meant by secured. I asked them about it as if the word secured is in the law and they just assumed it was as well just because I was asking.

 

[2AHokie]

Before anyone pipes up, FOPA has nothing to do with the scenario the OP described. MD 4-203 applies here.

Why? I don't intend to be contrary, but it seems like the OP's dilemma is exactly the kind of thing that FOPA is supposed to protect so I'm very curious why it wouldn't apply. It might save my skin at some future point in time.

In both cases (MD to PA, or PA to MD), the OP was going from a place where possession is legal and allowed to another place where possession is legal and allowed.

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

 

[Merlin]

No, if the state you are traveling through is more resticitive, then FOPA protects you. If the state has no prohibition on it (like VA) then you don't need to lock it in the trunk. And it's travel through a state, not going from one to another (like MD to PA). Each state's laws applying that situation (IMO)

IANAL.

Are there rules that you have to stay within for the FOPA's protection about any stopping in a state your driving through as far as just stopping for gas or lunch as you drive through compared to making stops for business or shopping where you may be making many stops other then the, just passing through stops?

 

[Merlin]

Why? I don't intend to be contrary, but it seems like the OP's dilemma is exactly the kind of thing that FOPA is supposed to protect so I'm very curious why it wouldn't apply. It might save my skin at some future point in time.

In both cases (MD to PA, or PA to MD), the OP was going from a place where possession is legal and allowed to another place where possession is legal and allowed.

As you posted, I think this is the fed law I was asking about.

18 USC § 926A - Interstate transportation of firearms
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

 

[NateIU10]

Why? I don't intend to be contrary, but it seems like the OP's dilemma is exactly the kind of thing that FOPA is supposed to protect so I'm very curious why it wouldn't apply. It might save my skin at some future point in time.

In both cases (MD to PA, or PA to MD), the OP was going from a place where possession is legal and allowed to another place where possession is legal and allowed.

FOPA would apply, I'm not sure why he thinks it wouldn't.

McDaniel v. Arnold, CIV.A. ELH-10-189, 2012 WL 4903041 (D. Md. Aug. 21, 2012) is a MD case that applies FOPA to a person returning from PA to his apartment in MD. The gun was in the trunk with a loaded magazine, so the court found FOPA was not satisfied, BUT it was still applied.

Also:

“Section 926A, both textually and in the words of its sponsor, ‘confers upon all law-abiding citizens a right to transport their firearms in a safe manner in interstate commerce.’ ” City of Camden v. Beretta U.S.A. Corp., 81 F.Supp.2d 541, 549 (D.N.J.2000) (quoting 131 Cong. Rec. S9101–05 (July 9, 1985) (statement of Sen. Orrin Hatch)).

 

[Waz]

As you posted, I think this is the fed law I was asking about.

18 USC § 926A - Interstate transportation of firearms
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if...

does this mean you can't wear it holstered even if unloaded, since you still need a permit to carry in md?

 

[Merlin]

FOPA would apply, I'm not sure why he thinks it wouldn't.

McDaniel v. Arnold, CIV.A. ELH-10-189, 2012 WL 4903041 (D. Md. Aug. 21, 2012) is a MD case that applies FOPA to a person returning from PA to his apartment in MD. The gun was in the trunk with a loaded magazine, so the court found FOPA was not satisfied, BUT it was still applied.

Also:

And in this case was FOPA not satisfied due to the loaded mag?

 

[jayjay]

For those of you that hold a non-resident CCW (Utah, Florida, etc.), I urge you to check Pennsylvania's new laws. I have a Florida CCW and called the PA Attorney General's office, and they have changed the non-resident portion of state reciprosity.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Crime/Firearm_Reciprocity_Notice_02062013.pdf

DA Kane's office told me that since I am a MD resident with a Florida CCW, this DA notice restricts me from leagally carrying in PA. However, I do not interpret her addendum that way. I interpret it that only PA residents who acquire a Florida permit are not recognized. This addendum was issued in response to PA residents who do not "interview favorably" with the sherriff and are denied PA permits, acquire Florida permits to work around the system.

Does anyone know for a fact?

 

[Merlin]

For those of you that hold a non-resident CCW (Utah, Florida, etc.), I urge you to check Pennsylvania's new laws. I have a Florida CCW and called the PA Attorney General's office, and they have changed the non-resident portion of state reciprosity.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Crime/Firearm_Reciprocity_Notice_02062013.pdf

DA Kane's office told me that since I am a MD resident with a Florida CCW, this DA notice restricts me from leagally carrying in PA. However, I do not interpret her addendum that way. I interpret it that only PA residents who acquire a Florida permit are not recognized. This addendum was issued in response to PA residents who do not "interview favorably" with the sherriff and are denied PA permits, acquire Florida permits to work around the system.

Does anyone know for a fact?

The way I understand it PA had people that live in PA that were in trouble at one time or another that would not qualify for a PA permit. These people would then go to Fla to get a permit that would let them carry in PA. I do not think it has anything to do with people who live outside of PA like someone from MD that has a Fla or UT permit.

 

[Merlin]

For those of you that hold a non-resident CCW (Utah, Florida, etc.), I urge you to check Pennsylvania's new laws. I have a Florida CCW and called the PA Attorney General's office, and they have changed the non-resident portion of state reciprosity.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Crime/Firearm_Reciprocity_Notice_02062013.pdf

DA Kane's office told me that since I am a MD resident with a Florida CCW, this DA notice restricts me from leagally carrying in PA. However, I do not interpret her addendum that way. I interpret it that only PA residents who acquire a Florida permit are not recognized. This addendum was issued in response to PA residents who do not "interview favorably" with the sherriff and are denied PA permits, acquire Florida permits to work around the system.

Does anyone know for a fact?

I would like to add the change in PA does not have anything to do with the UT permit because UT required that you have your home states permit if you live in a shall issues state before you get the UT permit.

MD residents do not need a MD permit to get the UT permit because MD is not a shall issue state. But PA is.

 

[NateIU10]

And in this case was FOPA not satisfied due to the loaded mag?

Correct. FOPA was not a valid defense because the gun was "loaded," even though no round was chambered. The court stated that this statute did not define "loaded", but looked to other federal definitions and determined a loaded magazine, in the handgun, was "loaded" for purposes of FOPA.

DA Kane's office told me that since I am a MD resident with a Florida CCW, this DA notice restricts me from leagally carrying in PA. However, I do not interpret her addendum that way. I interpret it that only PA residents who acquire a Florida permit are not recognized. This addendum was issued in response to PA residents who do not "interview favorably" with the sherriff and are denied PA permits, acquire Florida permits to work around the system.

Does anyone know for a fact?

The way I read the release, is that ALL FL non-resident licenses are no longer valid in the state of PA once the new agreement goes into effect. They could have limited it to only PA residents, but they did not. The new agreement, as I read it, states that you must be a FL resident by stating:

The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania shall give full faith and credit to a valid Concealed Handgun License issued by the State of Florida to legal residents of the State of Florida

 

[swinokur]

Why? I don't intend to be contrary, but it seems like the OP's dilemma is exactly the kind of thing that FOPA is supposed to protect so I'm very curious why it wouldn't apply. It might save my skin at some future point in time.

In both cases (MD to PA, or PA to MD), the OP was going from a place where possession is legal and allowed to another place where possession is legal and allowed.

The MD AG isued an opinion that you cannot posses a weapon in MD besides the limited exceptions allowed under 4-203 and therefore FOPA doesn't apply no matter if it's your origin or destination.. Plus how would you prove to a LEO in MD if you are from MD that you are coming from PA? He stops you in MD and MD is your home state. He's going to look to 4-203, not FOPA IMO.

FOPA would apply, I'm not sure why he thinks it wouldn't.

McDaniel v. Arnold, CIV.A. ELH-10-189, 2012 WL 4903041 (D. Md. Aug. 21, 2012) is a MD case that applies FOPA to a person returning from PA to his apartment in MD. The gun was in the trunk with a loaded magazine, so the court found FOPA was not satisfied, BUT it was still applied.

Also:
Quote:
“Section 926A, both textually and in the words of its sponsor, ‘confers upon all law-abiding citizens a right to transport their firearms in a safe manner in interstate commerce.’ ” City of Camden v. Beretta U.S.A. Corp., 81 F.Supp.2d 541, 549 (D.N.J.2000) (quoting 131 Cong. Rec. S9101–05 (July 9, 1985) (statement of Sen. Orrin Hatch)).

Where in 926A is his intent noted?

Lock in the trunk. Decline a search.

No problem.

Do what makes you feel best.

IANAL.

opinion attached.

 

[swinokur]

Are there rules that you have to stay within for the FOPA's protection about any stopping in a state your driving through as far as just stopping for gas or lunch as you drive through compared to making stops for business or shopping where you may be making many stops other then the, just passing through stops?

It doesn't specify. But if you stay too long, a court could decide you were at a destination and not passing through.

IANAL

 

[JimH4662]

CCW and the law

Thank you all for your response. With Maryland leading to total weapons ban and confiscation and Anti-gun A.H's, along with the soccer moms on the lookout for us gun crazed war mongering NRA Supporting lunatics, it gets confusing and you start to second guess our limited constitutional rights. I have a crew cab pickup. I don't drink, refrain from risk taking. But? Who thought it would get to this point. I read the Tea leaves years ago when the libtards started their agenda. Now. I laugh when I read or hear Oh that wont happen, they can't do that, don't worry you're covered, the constitution protects you, police won't start conducting road blocks/checks.? Let me send this ballon up. Scinerio 1: MSP to Recomm.... MV stopped at TT dinner on Rt 40. Tail Light out. Any Wants or Warrant? Recomm to MSP. No Wants or warrant, subject is registered owner, 9mm,. 357, 870, Marlin H001t, holds a Utah CCW. Yep bet me this is a pipe dream. Anyhow. Thanks all.
Stay below the radar.

 

[swinokur]

The way I read the release, is that ALL FL non-resident licenses are no longer valid in the state of PA once the new agreement goes into effect. They could have limited it to only PA residents, but they did not. The new agreement, as I read it, states that you must be a FL resident by stating:

My read as well. Lazy AG IMO. She could have just issued it for PA residents

 

[2AHokie]

The MD AG isued an opinion that you cannot posses a weapon in MD besides the limited exceptions allowed under 4-203 and therefore FOPA doesn't apply no matter if it's your origin or destination.. Plus how would you prove to a LEO in MD if you are from MD that you are coming from PA? He stops you in MD and MD is your home state. He's going to look to 4-203, not FOPA IMO.

Do what makes you feel best.

IANAL.

opinion attached.

Federal law supersedes MD law, regardless of whether our former AG wants to admit it or not. The first letter also seems tailored to the issue of carrying a handgun and less focused on transport. The second letter specifically mentions that it is not an official opinion.

To the best of my knowledge, FOPA doesn't prevent you from getting hassled or even arrested by a LEO. It just establishes an affirmative defense you can offer in court.

How does the LEO know you're going to or from one of the specified activities anymore than they know you're not going to or from one of the specified activities that are exempted? It's pretty impossible to prove one or the other on the side of the highway.

One of those activities is "(5) the moving by a bona fide gun collector of part or all of the collector's gun collection from place to place for public or private exhibition if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster; "

"Bona fide gun collector" is not a defined term in MD law so maybe we're all collectors. The state of MD said I was when it approved my regulated firearm collector application so maybe I'm coming home from a private exhibition.

Maybe some lawyers can chime in because I'm not one either.

 

[swinokur]

Esqappellate thought the opinion was junk but all of this can be avoided by:

1. Locking unloaded firearm in trunk.
2. Decline any search.

Problem solved.

 

[NateIU10]

My read as well. Lazy AG IMO. She could have just issued it for PA residents

I think you're too kind. I think she knew exactly what she was doing. A previous thought from Kathleen Kane:

During a debate at the Pa. Progressive Summit in February, both Murphy and opponent Kathleen Kane expressed support for tighter gun control measures.

“I’m a gun owner, but nowhere in the constitution is there the right to own a AK-47,” Murphy said.

Kane, a former prosecutor from Lackawanna County, agreed.

“We need to ensure and slow up the permitting of guns,” she said.

She knew exactly what she was doing IMO.

 

[2AHokie]

Esqappellate thought the opinion was junk but all of this can be avoided by:

1. Locking unloaded firearm in trunk.
2. Decline any search.

Problem solved.

Agreed (and #1 is required if #2 fails and you need to attempt to invoke FOPA as a defense in court).

 

[Merlin]

Correct. FOPA was not a valid defense because the gun was "loaded," even though no round was chambered. The court stated that this statute did not define "loaded", but looked to other federal definitions and determined a loaded magazine, in the handgun, was "loaded" for purposes of FOPA.



The way I read the release, is that ALL FL non-resident licenses are no longer valid in the state of PA once the new agreement goes into effect. They could have limited it to only PA residents, but they did not. The new agreement, as I read it, states that you must be a FL resident by stating:

So what your saying is that PA no longer honors any nonresident Fla permit no matter where you live?