ATF Proposed Rule 41P

[Hawkeye]

But it seems that each purchase would move the clock forward another two years.

I Could see them making us do the photo and prints one time, but at least by the explanation of the law, only an approval in the last two years is needed.

Crap.... re-reading the text that I just quoted, I think you're totally right.

You submit all the info once, and then as long as you have an approved transfer or making of a firearm at least every two years, you don't need to resubmit.

 

[Hawkeye]

So, would it be better then for an individual who was only interested in 2 or 3 suppressors to wait until after this takes effect in June to purchase them as oppossed to paying for a trust now and purchasing them before then?

I would do it now.

In fact, I AM doing it now.

If you get the trust now, and get the Form 4s (or 1s, if you're making them yourself) in before this takes effect, you'll save on paperwork and getting fingerprinted and stuff.

 

[outrider58]

But it seems that each purchase would move the clock forward another two years.

I Could see them making us do the photo and prints one time, but at least by the explanation of the law, only an approval in the last two years is needed.

I see it as a two year 'license' to purchase NFA items requireing a refreshing every two years. Yes, they sneaked a license to buy firearms in on us while we weren't looking??

 

[SWO Daddy]

I see it as a two year 'license' to purchase NFA items requireing a refreshing every two years. Yes, they sneaked a license to buy firearms in on us while we weren't looking??

...except for the fact that the entire section is listing what needs to be sent in with an application. It might be helpful if you could highlight/quote the section where you're reading that.

 

[rmbstyle]

So would the 24 month rule only apply to forms approved after the 180 day mark? In other words, would I have to submit that form 2 years from my recently approved forms?

 

[jmike1487]

Crap.... re-reading the text that I just quoted, I think you're totally right.



You submit all the info once, and then as long as you have an approved transfer or making of a firearm at least every two years, you don't need to resubmit.

So if I get all of my class 3 items out of my system now before the 180 days. I should just have to sit back and wait. No extra steps?

 

[Hawkeye]

So would the 24 month rule only apply to forms approved after the 180 day mark? In other words, would I have to submit that form 2 years from my recently approved forms?

Well, if you do it as a trust now, you won't be submitting any of this information (the 5320.23) so I would think that the first time you do one after the new regulation takes effect that you'd have to submit it. Then as long as you do one every two years after that you'd be fine as long as none of your info changes.

So if I get all of my class 3 items out of my system now before the 180 days. I should just have to sit back and wait. No extra steps?

Basically, yeah. It's status quo until 180 days after this change is published in the Federal Register. As long as you get everything submitted before then, it's business as usual.

 

[outrider58]

But it seems that each purchase would move the clock forward another two years.

I Could see them making us do the photo and prints one time, but at least by the explanation of the law, only an approval in the last two years is needed.

I see it as a two year 'license' to purchase NFA items requireing a refreshing every two years. Yes, they sneaked a license to buy firearms in on us while we weren't looking??

...except for the fact that the entire section is listing what needs to be sent in with an application. It might be helpful if you could highlight/quote the section where you're reading that.

It was a two sentence quote. Does this help? It's the best I can do from my cell phone on a constitution site.

 

[rmbstyle]

Well, if you do it as a trust now, you won't be submitting any of this information (the 5320.23) so I would think that the first time you do one after the new regulation takes effect that you'd have to submit it. Then as long as you do one every two years after that you'd be fine as long as none of your info changes.

Okay, I have 5 NFA items purchased using a trust. I just don't want to have to submit anything more on items I already own. I think im going to just purchase everything as an individual after this ruling takes effect.

 

[Wayne1one]

This ruling only effects trusts and other legal entities. If they took the CLEO signature away totally, they will back pedal away from that shortly.

That's how I understand it, this only effects trusts, entities etc.

It starts out: "This final rule defines the term "responsible person," as
used in reference to a trust, partnership, association, company, or corporation"

"The final rule only requires that the applicant maker
or transferee, including each responsible person for a trust or legal entity, provide a notice to the appropriate State or local official that an application is being submitted to ATF"

Remember that the goal of this was too: "The proposed regulations were intended to conform the identification and background check requirements applicable to certain trusts and legal entities to those that apply to individuals."

Individuals already had this standard so they were bringing up the Trust to a similar standard.

 

[Wayne1one]

So, would it be better then for an individual who was only interested in 2 or 3 suppressors to wait until after this takes effect in June to purchase them as oppossed to paying for a trust now and purchasing them before then because of the CLEO changes?

I think we have learned waiting is not our best option, get it now while you still can. These laws change like the wind blows.......

 

[Hawkeye]

That's how I understand it, this only effects trusts, entities etc.

That's not how I read it, and the ATF has said, in public, on their Facebook page, that this is for ALL transfers from here out, not just trusts.

"The final rule only requires that the applicant maker
or transferee, including each responsible person for a trust or legal entity, provide a notice to the appropriate State or local official that an application is being submitted to ATF"

The "applicant maker or transferee" is the person OR trust who is filing out the Form 1 / 4. What they are saying (and what was said in the actual text of the new regulation that I quoted earlier) is that from now on, the applicant maker or transferee must do the CLEO notification process, and IF that applicant maker or transferee is a Trust, Corp, etc, they must provide the information for each "responsible person." It's an inclusive statement which covers individual people as applicants, as well as each "responsible person" when the applicant is a trust or corp.

 

[AssMan]

Okay, I have 5 NFA items purchased using a trust. I just don't want to have to submit anything more on items I already own. I think im going to just purchase everything as an individual after this ruling takes effect.

Why? No advantage in doing so unless you plan on moving soon.


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[protegeV]

I think we have learned waiting is not our best option, get it now while you still can. These laws change like the wind blows.......

This!

 

[Wayne1one]

That's not how I read it, and the ATF has said, in public, on their Facebook page, that this is for ALL transfers from here out, not just trusts.



The "applicant maker or transferee" is the person OR trust who is filing out the Form 1 / 4. What they are saying (and what was said in the actual text of the new regulation that I quoted earlier) is that from now on, the applicant maker or transferee must do the CLEO notification process, and IF that applicant maker or transferee is a Trust, Corp, etc, they must provide the information for each "responsible person." It's an inclusive statement which covers individual people as applicants, as well as each "responsible person" when the applicant is a trust or corp.

Just saw that on FB, thanks for the insight! I guess it really wasn't that clear on the final rule, it's crystal now. That's actually a big plus for individuals.....

 

[dontpanic]

No the ATF states that it applies to ALL NFA transfers not just trusts. The information is here:

http://ow.ly/WDc7N

There is a separate document spelling out who are "responsible persons" in trusts:

https://www.atf.gov/file/100896/download

There is specific language stating that ALL transfers do not require CLEO signoff:

That's how I understand it, this only effects trusts, entities etc.

It starts out: "This final rule defines the term "responsible person," as
used in reference to a trust, partnership, association, company, or corporation"

"The final rule only requires that the applicant maker
or transferee, including each responsible person for a trust or legal entity, provide a notice to the appropriate State or local official that an application is being submitted to ATF"

Remember that the goal of this was too: "The proposed regulations were intended to conform the identification and background check requirements applicable to certain trusts and legal entities to those that apply to individuals."

Individuals already had this standard so they were bringing up the Trust to a similar standard.

See above quoted section. I took back my original statement. The ATF states clearly that no CLEO sign off is needed for trusts or individuals.

Just saw some guys beat me to it. It does simplify it for individuals and if you have a trust already, I would keep using it. At worst, you would only have to submit pics and prints every couple of years.

Or the way I see it, you may only have to submit them once.

 

[rmbstyle]

Why? No advantage in doing so unless you plan on moving soon.


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Seems like a hassle for individuals in my trust having to get fingerprinted everytime I want to buy a NFA item.

 

[AssMan]

Seems like a hassle for individuals in my trust having to get fingerprinted everytime I want to buy a NFA item.

If you buy something at least every 2 years, then maybe not. Otherwise I agree with you.


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[Wayne1one]

See above quoted section. I took back my original statement. The ATF states clearly that no CLEO sign off is needed for trusts or individuals.

Just saw some guys beat me to it. It does simplify it for individuals and if you have a trust already, I would jeep using it. At worst, you would only have to submit pics and prints every couple of years.

Or the way I see it, you may only have to submit them once.

Got it, I'm squared away now........ This is obviously better, I guess that I didn't think anything positive could come out of this....(negative Nancy mindset)

thanks for the info!

 

[erwos]

Why? Because people just don't want to go through the annoyance?

Yes. Removing the hassle of CLEO sign-off, photos, and fingerprints removes a big obstacle to obtaining an NFA item, and over time, saves a considerable amount of money if you buy a lot of NFA items. Trusts didn't get popular because people thought those were small annoyances, or because they needed to adds spouses and/or felons to the list of legal users.

Anyways, if this whole 24 month thing works like Prince et al claim it does with 5320.23s, trusts are still going to be super-useful because you won't need to do fingerprints and photo every time you fill out a form. I think I can swing an NFA item every 2 years for the rest of my life.