ATF Proposed Rule 41P

[snyperdave]

Current trust items

So do I need to take myself and the other 2 on my trust to get fingerprints, photos and stuff for items I have already on my trust (SBR and .22lr suppressor)?

 

[clandestine]

I think it's both (either/or)... and yes, it does eliminate most of the benefits of an NFA trust.

Thats the way I read it too. 5320.23 must be submitted upon submission of a F1/4 AND every 2 years for each trustee.

I hope I am wrong.

If they are requiring the form every 2 years its scary, because if the NFA Branch does not "receive" the forms (lose or misplace them), Im frightened that they will have a "Non Compliance Unit" to start knocking" on doors. Maybe thats what the 200 new agents are for.

 

[vgplayer]

Summary
http://blog.princelaw.com/2016/01/05/411-on-the-final-rule-in-relation-to-atf-41p/

All glorious 248 pages
https://www.atf.gov/file/100896/download

 

[SWO Daddy]

Thats the way I read it too. 5320.23 must be submitted upon submission of a F1/4 AND every 2 years for each trustee.

I hope I am wrong.

I'm not reading it like that. Think about it - if its supposed to be read that way, why are they asking for a 5320.23 upon submission at all? Aside from your first submission upon creating a trust, you will always be within the 2y window.

 

[clandestine]

I'm not reading it like that. Think about it - if its supposed to be read that way, why are they asking for a 5320.23 upon submission at all? Aside from your first submission upon creating a trust, you will always be within the 2y window.

Sounds like a biannual "spot check" to feel out disqualified Responsible Parties.

 

[SWO Daddy]

It appears Trustees have to submit a Form, P.P. Photo, and Prints every 2 years.

The language immediately preceding that quote says "Require the transferee to attach to the application:"

That section only applies to someone submitting an application.

The Form is a 5320.23

I went back and looked - that's the original draft from 2014 when they were just going to tone down what the CLEO was certifying. It doesn't match the ruling and I'm not sure it's appropriate to cite here.

 

[Drmsparks]

Summary
http://blog.princelaw.com/2016/01/05/411-on-the-final-rule-in-relation-to-atf-41p/

All glorious 248 pages
https://www.atf.gov/file/100896/download

most relevant to the current discussion:

Impact of RPs: One of the largest impacts ATF-41P will have on fictitious entities is the requirement that all RPs will have to submit photographs, fingerprints, a CLEO notification and an NFA Responsible Person Questionnaire (Form 5320.23). See pages 232, 239-247. Further, based on page 96, individuals will be unable to roll their own fingerprints, as has been custom for some over the past decade. However, the final rule includes an exception on page 242-243, where the if the applicant entity has been approved as a maker or transferee within the prior 24 months, there has been no change to the “documentation previously provided” and the entity certifies this by specifying the previously approved form by form type, serial number of the firearm and date of approval, it does not need to submit the photographs, fingerprints and Responsible Person Questionnaire. The final rule, pages 100 and 239, also states that generally speaking, a beneficiary will not be an RP.

 

[clandestine]

The language immediately preceding that quote says "Require the transferee to attach to the application:"

That section only applies to someone submitting an application.




I went back and looked - that's the original draft from 2014 when they were just going to tone down what the CLEO was certifying. It doesn't match the ruling and I'm not sure it's appropriate to cite here.

The form will probably omit the bottom portion then. Its the only .23 draft I can find.

As for whats appropriate to post, when you become a mod, ill care about what you think.

 

[SWO Daddy]

As for whats appropriate to post, when you become a mod, ill care about what you think.

You might not be aware, but there are other uses for the word appropriate outside the TOS for this message board. Grow up - it wasn't a personal attack, just a suggestion that you probably shouldn't be citing draft documents from 2 years ago as gospel.

 

[erwos]

Sounds like a biannual "spot check" to feel out disqualified Responsible Parties.

I don't think so. The ruling specifically notes that they rejected the "send us 5320.23s every time you add someone" idea.

Interestingly, Prince seems to think the 24 month thing DOES apply to the 5320.23s. That's not how I read it, even upon re-examination, but he's the lawyer, not me. The BATFE will probably need to clarify, but I rather hope he's right and I'm wrong.

 

[dontpanic]

most relevant to the current discussion:

If that's true, it seems that as long as you add something to your trust every two years and already had one approved before the new regulations go into affect, you would never have to submit prints or photographs.

The only change would be sending in the new form and the CLEO notification.

That's how I read it anyway, any other thoughts on this?

 

[clandestine]

You might not be aware, but there are other uses for the word appropriate outside the TOS for this message board. Grow up - it wasn't a personal attack, just a suggestion that you probably shouldn't be citing draft documents from 2 years ago as gospel.

It says DRAFT which means not final, therefore can change. I posted it so people have a general idea of what the document may look like.

None of my posts in this thread are gospel, they are my personal concerns over 41p and how they effect my family since we have a Trust.

 

[clandestine]

If that's true, it seems that as long as you add something to your trust every two years and already had one approved before the new regulations go into affect, you would never have to submit prints or photographs.

The only change would be sending in the new form and the CLEO notification.

That's how I read it anyway, any other thoughts on this?

That sounds plausible.

 

[Drmsparks]

If that's true, it seems that as long as you add something to your trust every two years and already had one approved before the new regulations go into affect, you would never have to submit prints or photographs.

The only change would be sending in the new form and the CLEO notification.

That's how I read it anyway, any other thoughts on this?

I see it as if you'll have to do it for your next purchase. Then you can buy whatever you want for two years without doing it again. Then you need to repeat it the next time you purchase.

 

[ericoak]

The industry is still gonna take a massive hit past June, though.

Why? Because people just don't want to go through the annoyance?

 

[dontpanic]

I see it as if you'll have to do it for your next purchase. Then you can buy whatever you want for two years without doing it again. Then you need to repeat it the next time you purchase.

But it seems that each purchase would move the clock forward another two years.

I Could see them making us do the photo and prints one time, but at least by the explanation of the law, only an approval in the last two years is needed.

 

[Hawkeye]

I see it as if you'll have to do it for your next purchase. Then you can buy whatever you want for two years without doing it again. Then you need to repeat it the next time you purchase.

That's how I would read it.

Here is the actual text of the amended regulation that pertains to this: (the wording is the same for Form 1 and Form 4)

( c) If the applicant entity has had an application approved as a maker or transferee within the preceding 24 months, and there has been no change to the documentation previously provided, the entity may provide a certification that the information has not been changed since the prior approval and shall identify the application for which the documentation had been submitted by form number, serial number, and date approved.

So basically, if you've jumped through the hoops within the past 24 months, instead of doing it again, you submit a certification that says "See my Form 1, serial number 123zxc, approved on 1/1/17." Then after two years from that date has expired you'd have to submit again.

A lot of the reasoning for that change comes out of all of the "cost" sections of that document. When they submit a new regulation, any part of the Gov't has to go through the process of cost justification on it in order to show that it won't cause a huge waste of money due to unnecessary paper pushing and whatnot. That's partially what's behind the change in CLEO signoff as well. By not requiring you to re-submit all of the paperwork every time, they save money on your end (which they actually have to account for) as well as on their end in review time.

I see nothing in the actual text of the regulation that would lead me to think that you'd have to submit this stuff any time that you're not actively transferring something, and then not more than every 2 years.

 

[cap6888]

Ill add another question to the confusion. What happens when my kids turn 18 and I want to add them to the trust? Just submit finger prints and photos and be done?

 

[vgplayer]

I agree it seems if you keep buying every 24 months and make no changes to the trust you wont have to submit fingerprints. However if I add one person then does everyone have to do it again?

 

[89BSP]

So, would it be better then for an individual who was only interested in 2 or 3 suppressors to wait until after this takes effect in June to purchase them as oppossed to paying for a trust now and purchasing them before then because of the CLEO changes?