308 bolt gun for Elk

[Slackdaddy]

Thanks for all the responses,, digging through them now.
As you can see, high powered center fired rifle hunting is new to me,, I have hunted MD whitetail and taken around 100+ deer with slug guns,,ML and Bow,, so no stranger to hunting.

The Hunt is only costing me the price of the cow tag,, My son-in-law is a guide.
He has followed the herd in this area for a year or 2 and has been withing 40 yds (bow).
I chatted with him this AM, and he assured 300 yard and under was doable on cows in this area.
My purpose for the hunt is not "a trophy of a lifetime", it is to spend time with my SIL, enjoy the mountains, If I have to pass on a Elk at 400 yards I will not have any remorse.
To me 3/4 of the hunt is getting within "Your" range

That said, I will pass on the 18" barrel,, just from the noise factor I am reading about.
I will study more on the 308 for Elk under 350 - 400 yards.

What would be an ideal total weight of the gun, incl scope ? (remember, hiking 5-10 miles a day)

 

[Slackdaddy]

Yeesh, all this 7- 8 hundred yard extended range talk makes me think I would find a guide who knows how to successfully bow hunt.
Maybe he could help get in close enough to help kill one with a pumpkin ball slug.

Don't laugh,, I was out in WY last week and told my Son-in-law that since he had gotten withing 40 yards of the herd,, I would just bring my 20ga Ultra Slug Hunter.

 

[Slackdaddy]

I spent a significant amount of time researching this and weighing pros and cons since I plan to spend a few weeks each year for the next 5-10 years hunting elk and mule deer.

I do have a few friends that guide and they all have told me their best success with clients is the ones who bring a gun they know. They will all say they would rather have a hunter with a 308 or 30-06 who knows the gun rather than the guy who just dumped a few grand on a 300 win mag that they have barely shot.

Could not agree more.
SIL offered use of his 30-06,, but I would only have one range session just before the hunt,, I am not comfortable with that.
I would prefer to put my own gut together and have a 100-200 rounds through it over many sessions.

 

[Boats]

5-10 miles a day with a slung rifle sucks.

Ditch the thumbhole. Install muzzle brake. Make that sucker as light as possible. It is guaranteed you will be humping a rifle all day. It is not guaranteed you will see or kill anything.

Guns are tools. In this case you want an easily portable rifle that can make humane hits on thin skinned game at 300 yards. Work down:

priority 1: easy to carry
priority 2: cold bore 1 shot accurate
priority 3: second shot accurate
priority 4: everything else: range toy, oooooo factor, comfort

.308 is more than enough at 300. 30-40krag is too. So is 30-30. etc etc. Hell, .22-250 would do it too with good shot placement. .223 probably would too

My recommendation? Carbon fiber montecarlo stock. Pencil barrel from an excellent manufacturer. ADL style feed system. Great trigger from a reputable company. fixed 10x scope

Everything else is fluff

 

[Doco Overboard]

Don't laugh,, I was out in WY last week and told my Son-in-law that since he had gotten withing 40 yards of the herd,, I would just bring my 20ga Ultra Slug Hunter.

There you go, have a great time.
A 308 will be more than adequate Im sure.
Really the only pressure you should be worried about is hunting pressure not so much as cartridge/ ballistic pressure.
Spending a good time with your SIl is whats most important a hunter would think.

 

[4g64loser]

Hahahahaha....the OP wants advice on a .308W rifle for $600 max and you mention your Sako 75? Sako 75s are pushing what, $2K nowadays? I shoot a Sako 75 300WBY, great rifle but a world apart from what the OP is asking about. The last time I had any experience purchasing a bolt action rifle was 8 years ago. But I do recalling that Rugers made decent entry level rifles in the American model. I have no clue whether they are still in production. Good luck.

I bring it up because I bought my 75 used from an elk hunter for a little over 600. It's plastic stocked, no fancy wood. Has some field love on it. And the 85 (the current model) is the one approaching 2k for the Bavarian which is a gorgeous piece of walnut on a blued rifle with iron sights. A good friend has one that I found for him at 1300. Not cheap but he'll never sell it.

I'll grant I've yet to have great accuracy with Hornady's bog standard FMJ and BTHP bullets. Not bad, just not fantastic in anything. Sierra is always a lot better. But their ELD-M have treated me very well in the accuracy department, same with SST. For all of those, FMJ, BTHP, SST, and ELD-M I can't say I've pushed anything to hypersonic velocities, but out of .223, 6.5 Grendel, .308 and Garands including pushing very hot loads for the former 3 at decent barrel lengths (22", 24" and 23" respectively for my longest barreled rifles in those calibers), I've never once had any of the few thousand Hornady bullets come apart mid-flight.

Not saying it can't happen. But I am saying that sounds like a problem batch. Taking your suggestion, I did poke around and I seem to find the same thing. A small number of reloaders who had such an issue, that seemed to be from one batch and they swore them off forevermore (sometimes despite having shot many thousands of them before getting a bad box).

And good or bad, I didn't personally witness how they loaded the rounds or how they shot them. Were they over crimped? Did one of the guys claiming they had one or two rounds come apart on them just badly pull a shot and no one visibly observed the bullet coming apart in flight? 80 something bullets out of a box? Yeah, that doesn't sound like shooter error. I guess could still be over crimped, though I'd think that would take a lot to damage the bullet so badly to come apart.

A small number of guys on the internet talking about a couple of bullets failing, generally no further testing, and swearing them off. I can't say what that could be. Bullet, reloader, or shooter issue. Even the former, the small number of occurrences I can find online sounds like rare manufacturing error. Not widespread process or design issues.

First off, the cases are never crimped. Neck turned, fire formed, brass from lapua or Nosler gets run in my 22-250ai tubes. The same brass hands in excellent, consistent, accuracy with a simple projectile brand change. As for swearing off, I did. Completely. Forever. If hornady has sacked up and owned it, I'd have been tempted to try their products again. Instead their so called tech people threw out BS. They ignored what they were told. You know how many berger or jlk bullets I've ever blown up? Let alone the majority of a box? Only ever failed berger VLDH bullets once or twice in a really eroded throat. Even in a really worn Krieger 308, I could shoot Sierra 2156s til they hit the paper sideways. Never failed one. In three worn out 308 pipes. When I found four (IIRC) Nosler CC 107s in a box with deformed tips where the point up die got them funny, I called Nosler with the lot number to let them know. They offered me a new box from a different lot. I told them four out of the unknown thousands didn't concern me and.loaded them for foulers (and they still shot fine, didn't blow up). But Nosler didn't question the fault. Their techs actually shoot and know a lot about the finer points of loading. I've spoken with Mike lake (their ballistician) and he's an unbelievable resource.

Thanks for all the responses,, digging through them now.
As you can see, high powered center fired rifle hunting is new to me,, I have hunted MD whitetail and taken around 100+ deer with slug guns,,ML and Bow,, so no stranger to hunting.

The Hunt is only costing me the price of the cow tag,, My son-in-law is a guide.
He has followed the herd in this area for a year or 2 and has been withing 40 yds (bow).
I chatted with him this AM, and he assured 300 yard and under was doable on cows in this area.
My purpose for the hunt is not "a trophy of a lifetime", it is to spend time with my SIL, enjoy the mountains, If I have to pass on a Elk at 400 yards I will not have any remorse.
To me 3/4 of the hunt is getting within "Your" range

That said, I will pass on the 18" barrel,, just from the noise factor I am reading about.
I will study more on the 308 for Elk under 350 - 400 yards.

What would be an ideal total weight of the gun, incl scope ? (remember, hiking 5-10 miles a day)

If you are going to an area where you can certainly get in that close, you will do fine with a 308. Get good at shooting it. Especially from field positions. Set up your pack, rifle, etc so that you can go from walking to shooting as fast as possible.

 

[Slackdaddy]

5-10 miles a day with a slung rifle sucks.

Ditch the thumbhole. Install muzzle brake. Make that sucker as light as possible. It is guaranteed you will be humping a rifle all day. It is not guaranteed you will see or kill anything.

Guns are tools. In this case you want an easily portable rifle that can make humane hits on thin skinned game at 300 yards. Work down:

priority 1: easy to carry
priority 2: cold bore 1 shot accurate
priority 3: second shot accurate
priority 4: everything else: range toy, oooooo factor, comfort

.308 is more than enough at 300. 30-40krag is too. So is 30-30. etc etc. Hell, .22-250 would do it too with good shot placement. .223 probably would too

My recommendation? Carbon fiber montecarlo stock. Pencil barrel from an excellent manufacturer. ADL style feed system. Great trigger from a reputable company. fixed 10x scope

Everything else is fluff

I was also warned about being to light,, what is the ideal "compromise" between light enough to hike with and heavy enough to shoot accurate with ?

I have boyds thumbholes on ~6 of my guns,,, they just pull up tight, They feel like "home cooking" to me. But yeah,, 2-2.25 lb

Not going to be building this one piece by piece,, Unless I stumble on a nearly free action and locate a reasonably priced barrel.

 

[4g64loser]

I was also warned about being to light,, what is the ideal "compromise" between light enough to hike with and heavy enough to shoot accurate with ?

I have boyds thumbholes on ~6 of my guns,,, they just pull up tight, They feel like "home cooking" to me. But yeah,, 2-2.25 lb

Not going to be building this one piece by piece,, Unless I stumble on a nearly free action and locate a reasonably priced barrel.

I'm probably a bad example but when I hunted groundhogs seriously I'd spend 8+ hours walking, sitting, and looking with a 12-18# (all up) rifle. Now, that's with a light day pack, maybe ten to fifteen pounds, and some water (call that four to six pounds). At less than 1000' elevation. You will be higher, carrying a lot more stuff, and probably a lot colder. None of those are performance enhancing.

My default "hunting" rifle is pretty heavy. It is a custom rig; WAR Rifles Warlord in .260rem. mcmillan stock and a light Palma barrel. That said, I will not hesitate to shoot a whitetail or equivalent size animal at 600yds. In your situation, I'd definitely grab my sako 75 in 338wm and shave off a LOT of weight. You don't want to shoot it for fun, though, and it isn't going to shoot like my custom rifles will at any real distance. Choices.

 

[Boats]

I was also warned about being to light,, what is the ideal "compromise" between light enough to hike with and heavy enough to shoot accurate with ?

I have boyds thumbholes on ~6 of my guns,,, they just pull up tight, They feel like "home cooking" to me. But yeah,, 2-2.25 lb

Not going to be building this one piece by piece,, Unless I stumble on a nearly free action and locate a reasonably priced barrel.

I get that. I have stocks on some of mine that are heavy but just shoulder well. None of them are hikeable.

Weight vs offhand shooting? Light with a muzzle brake. Keeps trips to the chiropractor down. The faster sway of the sight picture can be mitigated with breathing, technique and tree rests. Remember, this rifle will be shot very little for its purpose.

 

[Inigoes]

I see the OP is getting a lot of good advice here.

I can add a little info that may be helpful...

No question a .308 can humanely kill elk. Many people do it. With a perfectly placed shot on a perfectly positioned animal, even a .22 LR is deadly and I have seen MANY 1,200 pound steers killed with a .22. It becomes a matter of degrees, based on power vs placement. Larger calibers offer more flexibility in both placement and in acceptable shot angles, but on to the .308...

First, the .308 at ANY distance will benefit by going to a 20" barrel vs 18", in the form of less lost velocity. The reason I say this is that I've got a 20" .308 LTR and the drop/drift is noticeably more than my 26" barreled .308, and it is generally acknowledged that 20" is about as short as one should go before losing substantial performance. Shortening the barrel of a .308 has minimal effect between 26" and 22", and increasing effect from 22" to 20", and going to 18" and shorter starts to show more drastic velocity loss. This has to do with the .308's case capacity and how much barrel it needs to fully consume the powder charge.

Then, as pointed out above, western hunting usually entails shooting distances routinely longer than ours. This means two things:
One; drop and drift are more difficult to manage, and every bit of velocity and ballistic efficiency one can gain helps reduce the effect of relatively minor ranging errors, and
Two; bullet performance, both penetration and expansion, fades pretty quickly as one increases distance. A bullet from 18" .308 is already being challenged by velocity loss and it only gets worse as one increases distance.

The suggestions to use a larger cartridge are well-based in fact. The single biggest difference is going to be shots one must decline vs how many opportunities may be presented. One of my former students, a superb shot, kills two elk a year. One is typically a cow or gnarly little bull that is the result of a cull hunt, the other is a trophy animal.

He uses a .260 with Barnes 120 grain TSX bullets to shoot his cull, because there are many opportunities and he can both pick his shot and then carefully place his bullet. Last one I spoke with him about was a walking broadside shot at 300, and the bullet went through the heart & lungs and stuck under the skin on the far side. The little bullet performed beautifully, but had the animal run off into thick cover, there would have been very little blood trail to follow due to no exit wound. There are many shots he must decline, shots like quartering away and quartering to, where one bullet must penetrate the paunch and any stomach contents and the other must penetrate heavy bone. Declining these shots is not big deal, because where he hunts he gets many opportunities, but he would be very disappointed to decline such a shot on a once-in-a-lifetime bull.

On his trophy hunts, he uses a .300 WinMag with Barnes 180 TSX bullets. He KNOWS the .260 will kill elk just fine, with the perfect aspect angle and a perfect shot, but when hunting trophy animals, where that one quartering shot opportunity is all he gets, he wants to be able to take that shot with confidence. He has shot several very nice bulls with this rig and not all were the perfect standing broadside shots that many people seem to envision as common, but all were harvested.

While the 18"-20" .308 is somewhere in between these two examples, it is much closer to the .260 in that there will be many possible shots that a conscientious hunter would have to decline, while a bigger gun could have put meat in the freezer. If this doesn't matter and one can carefully pick and place their shots, the short-barreled .308 can work.

Once it is decided to use the .308, I would suggest using Barnes bullets. I saw where Nosler Partitions were suggested above. They are great bullets and I am a big fan when used in 'enough gun', but the advantage Barnes has is that they can use a lighter weight bullet to achieve nearly the same expansion and penetration results. The lighter bullet is an advantage in the .308 because it can be driven substantially faster, which is going to help mitigate the velocity handicap a short-barrel .308 will have. A 150 grain Barnes can be driven as fast as a conventional 150 grain bullet, but will perform much more like a conventional 165 or 180 grain on game.

Just a quick note about shooting really long shots, no matter what customary caliber is selected: Bullet performance at extended ranges is typically poor.

Even though I have confidence in my ability to hit what I'm shooting at, if my bullet is moving too slowly to expand, there is an excellent change of losing the animal, even with a good hit. I saw a whitetail deer shot at a little past 800 yards with a .300 WinMag using a 180 Nosler Ballistic Tip and the wound channel was not much worse than what one would see with an FMJ. I have shot several whitetails at 600-700 yards with 6.5mm 120 Ballistic Tips and the bullets passed through with very little damage. In fact, one such occasion, my spotter told me I had missed as the animal walked off, and had I not had confidence in my shot, I would not have bothered to go look for it. It was dead 50 yards from being hit. These same bullets, at average eastern hunting distances, have a reputation for over-expansion and excessive meat damage. I have seen literally hundreds of different bullets shot into firm dirt at distances from 200 to 1,200 yards and at the longer ranges, most bullets don't open up at all. The singular exception has been the .338Lapua, which is hurling a big heavy bullet with an excellent ballistic coefficient. It retains velocity well and the scale is such that the bullets continue to expand, or at least deform substantially, at extended ranges.

Lest we digress into an ethics debate, I will keep this VERY short. When one considers the lack of expansion that is probable at long range, the extended time of flight vs the inclination for the animal to take a step, the difficult in finding the exact spot the animal was standing with the likelihood of a very poor or absent blood trail, there IS definitely a point at which the shot should be declined in the interest of humane and ethical hunting.

Bullet performance is very critical when hunting thick skinned big game, such as elk.

Barnes TSX, or TTSX are a staple. Hornady has come out with sealed CX bullet line of ammunition (called outfitter).

Definitely stay away from bulk military surplus 7.62x51MM ammo. You could wind up chasing strays.

I recommend staying away from ammunition that one would typically buy from Wal-Mart and such, as that is geared to CXP2 game (deer). The CXP2 ammo are good for the initial sighting in, but that's about it.

One needs to switch over to the expensive CXP3 hunting ammo to fine tune their rig.

CXP Guide

 

[Inigoes]

Choice Ammunition makes pretty decent ammunition for folks who do not reload themselves. It isn't cheap either, but it is consistent.

175 grain

.308 Winchester 175 Grain BARNES LRX (LEAD FREE) 100% HAND LOADED !!

.308 Winchester 175 Grain Lead-free Barnes LRX Hand Loaded Ammunition

choiceammunition.com

168 grain

.308 Winchester 168 Grain Barnes TTSX (lead free) 100% Hand Loaded !!

.308 Winchester 168 Grain Barnes TTSX (lead free) 100% Hand Loaded !!

choiceammunition.com

 

[Hibs]

That said, I will pass on the 18" barrel,, just from the noise factor I am reading about.
I will study more on the 308 for Elk under 350 - 400 yards.

What would be an ideal total weight of the gun, incl scope ? (remember, hiking 5-10 miles a day)

Noise factor? There is going to be no perceivable difference when cracking off one shot with an 18" barrel versus say a 22" barrel.

I'd be more worried about packing something for 5-10 miles a day. You want as light and compact as possible.

 

[Slackdaddy]

Noise factor? There is going to be no perceivable difference when cracking off one shot with an 18" barrel versus say a 22" barrel.

I'd be more worried about packing something for 5-10 miles a day. You want as light and compact as possible.

My recent reading on 308 barrel lengths was pretty universally : 16" is horrendous noise wise, 18" was extremely loud, 20" was tolerable, 24" you could hear a mouse fart

 

[lazarus]

I get that. I have stocks on some of mine that are heavy but just shoulder well. None of them are hikeable.

Weight vs offhand shooting? Light with a muzzle brake. Keeps trips to the chiropractor down. The faster sway of the sight picture can be mitigated with breathing, technique and tree rests. Remember, this rifle will be shot very little for its purpose.

To add, in general you aren’t going to be taking an off hand shot at an Elk from 200+yds without something to brace on. But you may be winded getting in to position. I would practice not just from field positions and off hand, I’d practice if you safely can by doing a few push ups, then shooting.

Whether you are a bit winded from hiking or jogging or scrambling to quick get in a position to shoot, or you just have some buck fever. Never hurts to practice with your heart rate up and your breathing a bit fast.

If it’s braced, the weight matters a lot less.

Keep it under 9lbs with the optic. Ideally more like 8. Well under if goat or bear hunting up and down mountains.

I still hunt places like Greenridge where I am sometimes hiking up and down those little, but sometimes very sheer, hillocks and outcroppings 100-300ft high 4-10 miles a day Occasionally more. My go to is a Howa 1500 mini in 6.5 Grendel with an Omega 300 on the end and Sig whiskey 3, 3-9x40 on it. It weighs about 8# 4oz all up, empty mag, 20” heavy barrel. I feel it at the end of the day, but I feel the hills more than the rifle.

Depending on how cold, I carry between 15# of pack and winter clothes and 20# on top of the rifle.

2-3 miles of hiking in to Patuxent with my 7# muzzleloader sucks worse because I am often carrying 15# of pack and 30# of climbing stand awkwardly over my pack.

 

[lazarus]

My recent reading on 308 barrel lengths was pretty universally : 16" is horrendous noise wise, 18" was extremely loud, 20" was tolerable, 24" you could hear a mouse fart

I don’t know about hearing a mouse fart. But otherwise I’d agree. There’s a reason I’ve got a BRT linear comp on the end of my 18” .308 AR-10. Definitely reduces the blast a lot at the shooters end. Makes it about as much muzzle blast for the shooter as my Sako .308 with 23” barrel.

In a hunting situation you might not notice in that moment. You will later with your ears ringing. One shot with my Sako .308 not a problem. Two, I don’t appreciate. That AR-10 with just a bare barrel, my ears will be singing a bit later if I forgot to put my ear pro on with a single shot. It don’t just a matter of do you notice it at the time or not. You are still doing damage and 18” is several dB louder than a 22-24” barreled .308 and will consequently cause several times more damage for each squeeze of the trigger without ear protection on.

And who says it is one shot? Ideally yes. I’ve watched enough YouTube’s as well as some IRL circumstances (even myself a couple of times) where it was more than one shot. I didn’t notice much, but it wasn’t with a shorter barrel .308. It was with an 18” 6.5 Grendel with a linear comp and a 23” .308 Sako. And it was in more open woods. I’ve put two slugs down range with my 870 and a big ole 28” barrel in some thick cover and I had a headache and ears ringing all day afterwards and the concussion for sure screwed my follow up shot a little.

A reason I started hunting with a can and it isn’t just that I like to work on my shoulders and biceps while in the deer woods. I like my hearing. And it is much less disruptive to me when shooting. Not processing the muzzle blast consciously doesn’t mean it isn’t actually affecting you. Watch someone shoot with ear pro on in slow mo and then watch someone shoot without ear pro on in slow mo even in distracted situations like hunting. The more muzzle blast, the more disruptive it is for the shooter. If all you needed was the one shot and you don’t care about the damage to your hearing, fine. If you need more than one shoot, it’s more disruptive. And it isn’t just a flinch or physical pain. More blast kicks up more dust/dirt/leaves/snow if you are prone or the muzzle is near branches. Etc.

 

[Hibs]

My recent reading on 308 barrel lengths was pretty universally : 16" is horrendous noise wise, 18" was extremely loud, 20" was tolerable, 24" you could hear a mouse fart

You could have a suppressor on a 24" barrel and still need ear pro.

I've got a Remington 700 in .308 with a cut down barrel. Pretty sure it's 16", I'll have to drag it out of the safe when I get home. You're free to come shoot it sometime. I don't remember it being horrendous. No different than shooting any of my other centerfires.

 

[Slackdaddy]

You could have a suppressor on a 24" barrel and still need ear pro.

I've got a Remington 700 in .308 with a cut down barrel. Pretty sure it's 16", I'll have to drag it out of the safe when I get home. You're free to come shoot it sometime. I don't remember it being horrendous. No different than shooting any of my other centerfires.

I may have to take you up on that,,

 

[Hibs]

I may have to take you up on that,,

Hell I’ll let you borrow it. Maybe you can seal the deal on what I failed to do.

Myself, out West on an elk hunt (with said cut down .308)…. Saw Muleys, Bighorn Rams, and Whitetail but no elk of course.

 

[Slackdaddy]

Hell I’ll let you borrow it. Maybe you can seal the deal on what I failed to do.

Myself, out West on an elk hunt (with said cut down .308)…. Saw Muleys, Bighorn Rams, and Whitetail but no elk of course.

I appreciate the offer.
Guess I have to wait on the 18th to see how the draw goes.
If I draw, I would like to meet up and shoot it,, as I have little experience with center fire bolt.
What state were you in?

 

[Slackdaddy]

A reason I started hunting with a can and it isn’t just that I like to work on my shoulders and biceps while in the deer woods. I like my hearing. And it is much less disruptive to me when shooting. Not processing the muzzle blast consciously doesn’t mean it isn’t actually affecting you. Watch someone shoot with ear pro on in slow mo and then watch someone shoot without ear pro on in slow mo even in distracted situations like hunting. The more muzzle blast, the more disruptive it is for the shooter. If all you needed was the one shot and you don’t care about the damage to your hearing, fine. If you need more than one shoot, it’s more disruptive. And it isn’t just a flinch or physical pain. More blast kicks up more dust/dirt/leaves/snow if you are prone or the muzzle is near branches. Etc.

My days of hunting without ear protection end ~10 years ago.
Once the cheap elec muffs came out I went that route,, I wear them 100% of the time while on stand. helps that 100% of my deer hunting is stand hunting.

What type of ear protection for a western hike/hunt has been on my mind,, I was thinking of the 3M I use in the shop, If I keep them on my neck it would take 2 seconds to slip them in,, and offer "some" reduction.