308 bolt gun for Elk

[Bountied]

I won't get into the dirty details of every reason but I despise hornady projectiles. In short, the eld jackets are hot garbage. They copper foul in top shelf barrels that exhibit no coppering with ANY J4 jacketed bullets, I've personally blown up a LOT of hornady bullets with witnesses and I've been present for many, many, more hornady bullets blowing up (in midair, not in tissue).

More related to OP, of the several guys I know that shoot elk regularly (two were guides), only ONE will use a hornady bullet and it is over 200gr and running a solid 3000-3020fps.

I've had really good luck with the ELD-X only. Not a lot of copper fouling that I see and they haven't exploded until they hit the target. YMMV

 

[kstone803]

For that price I would recommend a Weatherby vanguard or Ruger American. I have both and they're both great guns for the money. I would go 300 WM but if you're set on 308 I would load Barnes or swift A frames. Both have impressive track records with killing big animals.

 

[4g64loser]

I've had really good luck with the ELD-X only. Not a lot of copper fouling that I see and they haven't exploded until they hit the target. YMMV

I exploded 81 of 100 in a single box before 50yds. I've cut their bullets in half on the milling machine and noted that their jacket is not drawn consistently. Had students blow up bullets, especially with the old brown box eldm 6.5 creed ammo. Bore scope has told me everything I need to know. And on top of that their "tech" people know less about the bullet and tool making process than many end users.

Two early life Krieger barrels coppered with hornady junk and (even now with MANY more rounds through them) do not copper using berger, Nosler, or jlk. In extreme velocity stuff (think 22-250ai and 6 Bitchslap), everything coppers but the above mentioned kriegers are in 308 and 3006. Velocities under 3000fps.

 

[trickg]

Posting to just follow this thread. I've never hunted larger game and have absolutely no experience, but I enjoy reading about it. I want to see where this thread goes and what Slackdaddy winds up with for a rifle.

 

[Bountied]

I exploded 81 of 100 in a single box before 50yds. I've cut their bullets in half on the milling machine and noted that their jacket is not drawn consistently. Had students blow up bullets, especially with the old brown box eldm 6.5 creed ammo. Bore scope has told me everything I need to know. And on top of that their "tech" people know less about the bullet and tool making process than many end users.

Two early life Krieger barrels coppered with hornady junk and (even now with MANY more rounds through them) do not copper using berger, Nosler, or jlk. In extreme velocity stuff (think 22-250ai and 6 Bitchslap), everything coppers but the above mentioned kriegers are in 308 and 3006. Velocities under 3000fps.

Was your ammo reloads or factory loaded? I have Tikka Tac A-1 6.5CM and shoot the Hornadys, it's been accurate out to 500yds and no blown up bullets. I'm not doubting your experience but with my rifles I have not seen this occur. I don't have 100's of rounds down the tube on either rifle so time may tell. I also need to get a borescope.

 

[Fredcohunter]

I spent a significant amount of time researching this and weighing pros and cons since I plan to spend a few weeks each year for the next 5-10 years hunting elk and mule deer.

I do have a few friends that guide and they all have told me their best success with clients is the ones who bring a gun they know. They will all say they would rather have a hunter with a 308 or 30-06 who knows the gun rather than the guy who just dumped a few grand on a 300 win mag that they have barely shot.

 

[Doco Overboard]

Yeesh, all this 7- 8 hundred yard extended range talk makes me think I would find a guide who knows how to successfully bow hunt.
Maybe he could help get in close enough to help kill one with a pumpkin ball slug.

 

[Uncle Duke]

I spent a significant amount of time researching this and weighing pros and cons since I plan to spend a few weeks each year for the next 5-10 years hunting elk and mule deer.

I do have a few friends that guide and they all have told me their best success with clients is the ones who bring a gun they know. They will all say they would rather have a hunter with a 308 or 30-06 who knows the gun rather than the guy who just dumped a few grand on a 300 win mag that they have barely shot.

I have to wonder how much of the "knowing" mention relates directly to the gun, and how much really relates to the distance, as likely an issue with either gun.

 

[4g64loser]

Yeesh, all this 7- 8 hundred yard extended range talk makes me think I would find a guide who knows how to successfully bow hunt.
Maybe he could help get in close enough to help kill one with a pumpkin ball slug.

Depends where you hunt. I have seen LARGE areas of wyoming and utah where the smallest thing I'd consider is a 300 magnum. Land has zilch for cover and it's 50+mph winds normally.

If you are in the timber near Conifer, colorado, a bow or a short barrel conventional caliber rifle (with the right bullet) does you fine.

Seen places where the speedgoat won't let you closer than 4-500yds. Even if you don't have a gun.

My coworker hunts idaho and utah where there are some trees but the most productive hunting is over clearings and fields as he is after trophy class bulls. He regularly goes unguided (he was a guide) and has no issue taking elk at 6-800.

Guides can't make god plant trees.

 

[4g64loser]

Was your ammo reloads or factory loaded? I have Tikka Tac A-1 6.5CM and shoot the Hornadys, it's been accurate out to 500yds and no blown up bullets. I'm not doubting your experience but with my rifles I have not seen this occur. I don't have 100's of rounds down the tube on either rifle so time may tell. I also need to get a borescope.

The 81/100 blowups in one box was handloaded. Checked both greenhill and miller calcs for bullet LENGTH (not weight). The hornady "tech" didn't know what the miller formula was. They tried telling me that I had a shot out barrel (nope, under 500rounds, 100 theirs, criterion match blank), that I had wrong twist (nope, 1.65 miller stability), and on down the excuse line. I subsequently shot consistent 3/8" five shot groups using Nosler bullets in the same barrel, using the same cases. It's a wildcat chambering, 22-250ai, with a 9 twist (incidentally, that's the twist rate printed on hornadys box).

I don't own a creedmoor barrel so all the blowups I have seen out of that round are in other people's rifles. Mostly with the older brown box eldm load (the newer white box is loaded to lower pressure). Mostly seen this at steel plate type matches as paper match guys tend to favor berger, or similar. Look up 140 hornady bullet failure.....it's a known issue. You will find guys posting about it on precision rifle oriented boards.

I shoot a pair of 260s and have never put a hornady bullet in either one. Berger and Nosler. The short one (factory tikka barrel) I just tried sierra 130s in and it is VERY promising, but the 20" barrel does limit extended range performance due to low velocity. Best initial testing shows that faster than normal powders perform best in that barrel. PM me to remind me and I'll send you pics of the initial testing. The other 260 is currently shooting 140 Nosler RDFs at 2780avg with ES in the 15-23range depending on conditions. That one is a 25" Brux.

 

[E.Shell]

...It's a wildcat chambering, 22-250ai, with a 9 twist (incidentally, that's the twist rate printed on hornadys box)...

Most likely 1:9 at .223 velocities...a .22-250 will achieve the same RPM with a slower twist, but they still shouldn't rupture.

 

[4g64loser]

Most likely 1:9 at .223 velocities...a .22-250 will achieve the same RPM with a slower twist, but they still shouldn't rupture.

I specifically asked the "tech" at hornady for both the maximum linear and rotational velocity values on the bullet. According to him, no max on muzzle velocity. He had no idea what rotational velocity was, couldn't even provide a value in rotations per minute.

The REALLY funny part is that I shot some 53 VMAX in that same barrel and not a single one blew up. Tells me that they can't make jackets well. The 53 has a thinner jacket wall spec than the 75. In my 14 twist barrels, the Nosler 40s usually get up to 4300+. Never had one blow up in flight with less than 1500rounds on a barrel.

The old amax bullets had better jacket material, coppered a lot less. For those wanting a "cheaper than berger or Nosler" match bullet, I suggest barnes match burners. So far, I have had acceptable results with them in 264 bores and two other guys I know are running them in 284 bores for barricade practice ammo. They seem to average .15 or more per bullet cheaper than berger.

 

[Doco Overboard]

Guides can't make god plant trees.

That’s exactly why you need a good one.

 

[4g64loser]

That’s exactly why you need a good one.

Guides can only use the land they lease.

My coworker has shot ALL of his biggest bulls at ranges over 300. Mostly upstate new mexico (where he guided) and in Utah. Guys shoot some massive racks in colorado timber up close but in that kind of terrain you usually need a longer hunt to have a good chance of a trophy kill. Two friends go as a team (no guide) and typically get a good animal but they have gone from putting in for the more wooded areas to putting in for areas with more open ground.

 

[Doco Overboard]

Guides can only use the land they lease.

My coworker has shot ALL of his biggest bulls at ranges over 300. Mostly upstate new mexico (where he guided) and in Utah. Guys shoot some massive racks in colorado timber up close but in that kind of terrain you usually need a longer hunt to have a good chance of a trophy kill. Two friends go as a team (no guide) and typically get a good animal but they have gone from putting in for the more wooded areas to putting in for areas with more open ground.

My Buddy Larry gets good bulls outside of his tag along camper in Arizona.
One day I’m going to go with him but my experience is small time stuff obviously here in the east.
Hunting is good enough here at home to where I don’t really have any desire to go anywhere else. Never really had to I think as far as hunting goes. I’m a small timer.
But anyway, the people I know / family aren’t making 700 yd shots and all that.
The most prolific of them uses a 7 mm Mauser. The other a 300. One other my uncle chief / Gaylord , a 30/40 Krag but he’s an Indian so he sneaks up on them while they’re sleeping or something like that. They can do whatever they want on the reservation I think.
My other friend who manages government land in Oklahoma prolly wants copper or silver bullets by now. Or kill a hundred coyotes before he’ll take me if I wanted to.

 

[Hamiltonion]

If you are dead set on 308, I will not address any other cartridges or bore diameters. Two of my close associates are former elk guides (new mexico and colorado) and generally advocate for higher performance cases but they both are comfortable hunting at extended ranges (one just took an elk at over 700 last year).

If you are sure you can get within three hundred yards and be afforded an acceptable presentation, there are plenty of people killing elk with 308. Bullet selection is FAR more important than bore diameter, within reasonable limits, on tissue. With your self imposed limit of 300, I'd say that you should be looking at the Nosler partition as it affords you an extremely broad spectrum of effective killing shots even with the 308 driving it. The next option would be one of the midweight or heavy for caliber accubond offerings.

As for rifle selection, that's more about fit and your tolerance for weight than performance. My "big critter gitter" is a sako 75 in 338wm. I don't have any intention of using it at extended ranges (have plenty of precision rifles for that) but the sako is a thin barrel, plastic stock that is light enough, weather resistant enough, and powerful enough for me to consider anything in the americas fair game (with the right projectile). Used, the 75s will be at the top of or over your price point but are excellent rifles. Used tikkas will be a bit less and are also excellent. Try to find a stainless one (not as common on the used market).

Hahahahaha....the OP wants advice on a .308W rifle for $600 max and you mention your Sako 75? Sako 75s are pushing what, $2K nowadays? I shoot a Sako 75 300WBY, great rifle but a world apart from what the OP is asking about. The last time I had any experience purchasing a bolt action rifle was 8 years ago. But I do recalling that Rugers made decent entry level rifles in the American model. I have no clue whether they are still in production. Good luck.

 

[lazarus]

I see the OP is getting a lot of good advice here.

I can add a little info that may be helpful...

No question a .308 can humanely kill elk. Many people do it. With a perfectly placed shot on a perfectly positioned animal, even a .22 LR is deadly and I have seen MANY 1,200 pound steers killed with a .22. It becomes a matter of degrees, based on power vs placement. Larger calibers offer more flexibility in both placement and in acceptable shot angles, but on to the .308...

First, the .308 at ANY distance will benefit by going to a 20" barrel vs 18", in the form of less lost velocity. The reason I say this is that I've got a 20" .308 LTR and the drop/drift is noticeably more than my 26" barreled .308, and it is generally acknowledged that 20" is about as short as one should go before losing substantial performance. Shortening the barrel of a .308 has minimal effect between 26" and 22", and increasing effect from 22" to 20", and going to 18" and shorter starts to show more drastic velocity loss. This has to do with the .308's case capacity and how much barrel it needs to fully consume the powder charge.

Then, as pointed out above, western hunting usually entails shooting distances routinely longer than ours. This means two things:
One; drop and drift are more difficult to manage, and every bit of velocity and ballistic efficiency one can gain helps reduce the effect of relatively minor ranging errors, and
Two; bullet performance, both penetration and expansion, fades pretty quickly as one increases distance. A bullet from 18" .308 is already being challenged by velocity loss and it only gets worse as one increases distance.

The suggestions to use a larger cartridge are well-based in fact. The single biggest difference is going to be shots one must decline vs how many opportunities may be presented. One of my former students, a superb shot, kills two elk a year. One is typically a cow or gnarly little bull that is the result of a cull hunt, the other is a trophy animal.

He uses a .260 with Barnes 120 grain TSX bullets to shoot his cull, because there are many opportunities and he can both pick his shot and then carefully place his bullet. Last one I spoke with him about was a walking broadside shot at 300, and the bullet went through the heart & lungs and stuck under the skin on the far side. The little bullet performed beautifully, but had the animal run off into thick cover, there would have been very little blood trail to follow due to no exit wound. There are many shots he must decline, shots like quartering away and quartering to, where one bullet must penetrate the paunch and any stomach contents and the other must penetrate heavy bone. Declining these shots is not big deal, because where he hunts he gets many opportunities, but he would be very disappointed to decline such a shot on a once-in-a-lifetime bull.

On his trophy hunts, he uses a .300 WinMag with Barnes 180 TSX bullets. He KNOWS the .260 will kill elk just fine, with the perfect aspect angle and a perfect shot, but when hunting trophy animals, where that one quartering shot opportunity is all he gets, he wants to be able to take that shot with confidence. He has shot several very nice bulls with this rig and not all were the perfect standing broadside shots that many people seem to envision as common, but all were harvested.

While the 18"-20" .308 is somewhere in between these two examples, it is much closer to the .260 in that there will be many possible shots that a conscientious hunter would have to decline, while a bigger gun could have put meat in the freezer. If this doesn't matter and one can carefully pick and place their shots, the short-barreled .308 can work.

Once it is decided to use the .308, I would suggest using Barnes bullets. I saw where Nosler Partitions were suggested above. They are great bullets and I am a big fan when used in 'enough gun', but the advantage Barnes has is that they can use a lighter weight bullet to achieve nearly the same expansion and penetration results. The lighter bullet is an advantage in the .308 because it can be driven substantially faster, which is going to help mitigate the velocity handicap a short-barrel .308 will have. A 150 grain Barnes can be driven as fast as a conventional 150 grain bullet, but will perform much more like a conventional 165 or 180 grain on game.

Just a quick note about shooting really long shots, no matter what customary caliber is selected: Bullet performance at extended ranges is typically poor.

Even though I have confidence in my ability to hit what I'm shooting at, if my bullet is moving too slowly to expand, there is an excellent change of losing the animal, even with a good hit. I saw a whitetail deer shot at a little past 800 yards with a .300 WinMag using a 180 Nosler Ballistic Tip and the wound channel was not much worse than what one would see with an FMJ. I have shot several whitetails at 600-700 yards with 6.5mm 120 Ballistic Tips and the bullets passed through with very little damage. In fact, one such occasion, my spotter told me I had missed as the animal walked off, and had I not had confidence in my shot, I would not have bothered to go look for it. It was dead 50 yards from being hit. These same bullets, at average eastern hunting distances, have a reputation for over-expansion and excessive meat damage. I have seen literally hundreds of different bullets shot into firm dirt at distances from 200 to 1,200 yards and at the longer ranges, most bullets don't open up at all. The singular exception has been the .338Lapua, which is hurling a big heavy bullet with an excellent ballistic coefficient. It retains velocity well and the scale is such that the bullets continue to expand, or at least deform substantially, at extended ranges.

Lest we digress into an ethics debate, I will keep this VERY short. When one considers the lack of expansion that is probable at long range, the extended time of flight vs the inclination for the animal to take a step, the difficult in finding the exact spot the animal was standing with the likelihood of a very poor or absent blood trail, there IS definitely a point at which the shot should be declined in the interest of humane and ethical hunting.

Not that I'd put it as the end all, be all, meat eater had an interesting test of traditional cup and core, ballistic tip, and then monolithic copper bullet types are short, medium, and long ranges using a deer shoulder in ballistic gelatin and without the deer bone. Not a perfect test. Interesting to see. The copper performed the worst a long range, which in this case was 500yds using 6.5CM IIRC. Not much expansion or shock unless it hit bone, and less than the other others. Cup and core was also not great at that range, but seemed to be somewhat better. The ballistic tip performed well. At 300yds and 100yds (130yds?) the copper performed great with or without hitting bone. The cup and core just came apart hitting bone at those distances IIRC. The ballistic tip also overexpanded at short range, but was great at medium range. Now a bonded ballistic tip might be the best option.

For OP

That said, basically nothing will expand once the velocity drops under 1700fps. Many, especially more traditional designs are higher velocity. Copper is usually 1900fps. And most don't seem to expand well at all once they are within 100-200fps of that minimum.

A quick lookup of a Hornady SST, and you hit ~1700fps at 500yds from an 18" .308 (estimating 2700fps MV, or at least that is about what my 18" AR-10 does with handloads. I think I am actually at a 2720fps average). So call it between 400-500yds where expansion starts to get very dicey, with a ballistic tip bullet. Nosler from some quick research (I've got some of their all copper 120gr for my 6.5 grendel and love them, but no bonded) the bonded has a minimum expansion velocity of 1800fps, which is about 400yds from an 18". But, full expansion doesn't seem to be reached until velocity is a fair amount higher unless you hit bone. They are meant to be shoved fast, or ramming them into shoulders. So even 300yds may be dicey with a .308 18". You can aim for a shoulder, but then you are almost certainly not going to penetrate out the other side in this case.

Copper are going to be the same way. Might get expansion around 1800-1900fps, but you want to be going 100-200fps faster for good performance.

A 300WM is going to push the exact same weight bullet a .308 can, at around 400fps faster. That's roughly 200yds further for identical performance. For long range use, you can step up a weight level or two, and probably extend that performance more like 250-300yds with being a bit higher velocity, and a lot heavier, so it'll slow a lot less, and also have the retained weight and energy to penetrate deep.

 

[lazarus]

Hahahahaha....the OP wants advice on a .308W rifle for $600 max and you mention your Sako 75? Sako 75s are pushing what, $2K nowadays? I shoot a Sako 75 300WBY, great rifle but a world apart from what the OP is asking about. The last time I had any experience purchasing a bolt action rifle was 8 years ago. But I do recalling that Rugers made decent entry level rifles in the American model. I have no clue whether they are still in production. Good luck.

I have a FANTASTIC Sako Forester in .308. Now it is a ~23" barrel, which would not appeal to OP, and OP will have to pry it out of my cold dead hands as it is a hand-me-down from my wife's uncle. It is engraved with reindeer and I'd imagine a fair few have been used to kill them, almost as big as Elk them Caribou.

But I'd still be taking a 300WM out west some year when I go (7mm Rem Mag is also just dandy, but I don't own any 7mm and don't want to reload for 7mm, so I'd rather a 300wm).

 

[lazarus]

I specifically asked the "tech" at hornady for both the maximum linear and rotational velocity values on the bullet. According to him, no max on muzzle velocity. He had no idea what rotational velocity was, couldn't even provide a value in rotations per minute.

The REALLY funny part is that I shot some 53 VMAX in that same barrel and not a single one blew up. Tells me that they can't make jackets well. The 53 has a thinner jacket wall spec than the 75. In my 14 twist barrels, the Nosler 40s usually get up to 4300+. Never had one blow up in flight with less than 1500rounds on a barrel.

The old amax bullets had better jacket material, coppered a lot less. For those wanting a "cheaper than berger or Nosler" match bullet, I suggest barnes match burners. So far, I have had acceptable results with them in 264 bores and two other guys I know are running them in 284 bores for barricade practice ammo. They seem to average .15 or more per bullet cheaper than berger.

I'll grant I've yet to have great accuracy with Hornady's bog standard FMJ and BTHP bullets. Not bad, just not fantastic in anything. Sierra is always a lot better. But their ELD-M have treated me very well in the accuracy department, same with SST. For all of those, FMJ, BTHP, SST, and ELD-M I can't say I've pushed anything to hypersonic velocities, but out of .223, 6.5 Grendel, .308 and Garands including pushing very hot loads for the former 3 at decent barrel lengths (22", 24" and 23" respectively for my longest barreled rifles in those calibers), I've never once had any of the few thousand Hornady bullets come apart mid-flight.

Not saying it can't happen. But I am saying that sounds like a problem batch. Taking your suggestion, I did poke around and I seem to find the same thing. A small number of reloaders who had such an issue, that seemed to be from one batch and they swore them off forevermore (sometimes despite having shot many thousands of them before getting a bad box).

And good or bad, I didn't personally witness how they loaded the rounds or how they shot them. Were they over crimped? Did one of the guys claiming they had one or two rounds come apart on them just badly pull a shot and no one visibly observed the bullet coming apart in flight? 80 something bullets out of a box? Yeah, that doesn't sound like shooter error. I guess could still be over crimped, though I'd think that would take a lot to damage the bullet so badly to come apart.

A small number of guys on the internet talking about a couple of bullets failing, generally no further testing, and swearing them off. I can't say what that could be. Bullet, reloader, or shooter issue. Even the former, the small number of occurrences I can find online sounds like rare manufacturing error. Not widespread process or design issues.

 

[Slackdaddy]

Guides can only use the land they lease.

My coworker has shot ALL of his biggest bulls at ranges over 300. Mostly upstate new mexico (where he guided) and in Utah. Guys shoot some massive racks in colorado timber up close but in that kind of terrain you usually need a longer hunt to have a good chance of a trophy kill. Two friends go as a team (no guide) and typically get a good animal but they have gone from putting in for the more wooded areas to putting in for areas with more open ground.

In the area of WY we will be hunting (Medicine Bow),, a non resident hunter (me) needs to be accompanied by a lic guide to hunt in wilderness areas.