308 bolt gun for Elk

[Slackdaddy]

I may be headed out west for a cow Elk hunt this fall, I will know in 2 weeks when the draw happens.
My son-in-law just got his guide lic,,
Anyhow,, I have hunted MD exclusively for the last 30 years. So slug guns and .22 for the most part,, and I am in the dark on "high Powered" center fire bolt guns.

I am looking to "build" a mid budget Gun,, Trying to keep it under 5-600 excluding the optic.
I am kinda set on a 308 as I have a LOT of 308 ammo and plan to eventually get an AR308, so prefer to keep with the 308.
My shots will be kept to ~300 yards and under, So I do not need a 26" Long Range set up.
What ever bolt 308 I get, I plan to put it in a Boyds "At-One Thumbhole" or "Spike Camp" thumbhole stock.

-We will be hiking around 5-10 miles a day. What weight range should I try to achieve for the completed/scoped gun?
-For the distances I plan to shoot - 300 yards,, or even 400 in the future,, an 18" barrel should be more than enough,,, I don't want anymore barrel than needed to do the job.
-While this will be a hunting gun,, I do like a lot of range time with my hunting guns. My understanding is the pencil barrels heat up after a few shots? not a problem hunting,, but an
issue putting 20 rounds through it in a practice session ? Should I be looking for something with a 18-20" fluted barrel ?

I wanted to go with a Howa 1500 barrel action,, but Brownells has reduced the offerings,, nothing in 308 even comes close to what I am thinking about.
The only shorter (18-20") fluted 308 bolt I am seeing is a CVA Cascade SB,, but they are running $700,, then another $200 for the Boyds stock.

Any suggestions for a 308 bolt action/barrel to fit my desires in the $400 - $450 range ? even an older used gun if the price is right .

 

[joppaj]

Hopefully @E.Shell sees this...

 

[antco]

What state are you hunting in? Getting within 300yds in some places just isn't happening.

 

[Slackdaddy]

What state are you hunting in? Getting within 300yds in some places just isn't happening.

WY,, in the Snowy's area of Medicine Bow,, He has been within 200 of herds in the last 2 years in the area.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Here Slackdaddy

Don’t Sell the .308 Win Short

 

[4g64loser]

If you are dead set on 308, I will not address any other cartridges or bore diameters. Two of my close associates are former elk guides (new mexico and colorado) and generally advocate for higher performance cases but they both are comfortable hunting at extended ranges (one just took an elk at over 700 last year).

If you are sure you can get within three hundred yards and be afforded an acceptable presentation, there are plenty of people killing elk with 308. Bullet selection is FAR more important than bore diameter, within reasonable limits, on tissue. With your self imposed limit of 300, I'd say that you should be looking at the Nosler partition as it affords you an extremely broad spectrum of effective killing shots even with the 308 driving it. The next option would be one of the midweight or heavy for caliber accubond offerings.

As for rifle selection, that's more about fit and your tolerance for weight than performance. My "big critter gitter" is a sako 75 in 338wm. I don't have any intention of using it at extended ranges (have plenty of precision rifles for that) but the sako is a thin barrel, plastic stock that is light enough, weather resistant enough, and powerful enough for me to consider anything in the americas fair game (with the right projectile). Used, the 75s will be at the top of or over your price point but are excellent rifles. Used tikkas will be a bit less and are also excellent. Try to find a stainless one (not as common on the used market).

 

[Billman]

I've elk hunted in Colorado many times, 300 yards can be achieved. A guide told me one of the most common questions is related to caliber. His stock answer was comical, bring whatever you want as long as the caliber starts with a 3 and ends with magnum. For what it's worth, 300 Weatherby Magnum is my choice.

 

[John from MD]

I may be headed out west for a cow Elk hunt this fall, I will know in 2 weeks when the draw happens.
My son-in-law just got his guide lic,,
Anyhow,, I have hunted MD exclusively for the last 30 years. So slug guns and .22 for the most part,, and I am in the dark on "high Powered" center fire bolt guns.

I am looking to "build" a mid budget Gun,, Trying to keep it under 5-600 excluding the optic.
I am kinda set on a 308 as I have a LOT of 308 ammo and plan to eventually get an AR308, so prefer to keep with the 308.
My shots will be kept to ~300 yards and under, So I do not need a 26" Long Range set up.
What ever bolt 308 I get, I plan to put it in a Boyds "At-One Thumbhole" or "Spike Camp" thumbhole stock.

-We will be hiking around 5-10 miles a day. What weight range should I try to achieve for the completed/scoped gun?
-For the distances I plan to shoot - 300 yards,, or even 400 in the future,, an 18" barrel should be more than enough,,, I don't want anymore barrel than needed to do the job.
-While this will be a hunting gun,, I do like a lot of range time with my hunting guns. My understanding is the pencil barrels heat up after a few shots? not a problem hunting,, but an
issue putting 20 rounds through it in a practice session ? Should I be looking for something with a 18-20" fluted barrel ?

I wanted to go with a Howa 1500 barrel action,, but Brownells has reduced the offerings,, nothing in 308 even comes close to what I am thinking about.
The only shorter (18-20") fluted 308 bolt I am seeing is a CVA Cascade SB,, but they are running $700,, then another $200 for the Boyds stock.

Any suggestions for a 308 bolt action/barrel to fit my desires in the $400 - $450 range ? even an older used gun if the price is right .

When you hunt Elk out west, you need something in the 300 Win Mag class. You can't think about distance as it is here. Out there the shot distances are 3 -4 times more than "back East."

 

[John from MD]

WY,, in the Snowy's area of Medicine Bow,, He has been within 200 of herds in the last 2 years in the area.

The key is, how much time will you have out there? You may see an 800 yard shot but may not see a 300 yard shot your whole time there.

 

[silver78]

Not that I am an expert here but when I see folks with experience lean towards cartridges more powerful than 308 it seems like a longer barrel to increase projectile velocity for your 308 may make sense. Wish you the best of luck on your hunt.

 

[lazarus]

The key is, how much time will you have out there? You may see an 800 yard shot but may not see a 300 yard shot your whole time there.

That would be my concern. My 2 cents, is unless budget is exceptionally tight, you can always get a 300 win mag or similar, a few boxes of ammo to sight in and practice, and then head out west for your hunt, come home and sell the rifle. It'll probably cost you $200-300 loss on the value of the rifle selling or consigning it.

For an Elk hunt? Especially if it is guided? That is a drop in the bucket.

At the very least, I'd get something in .30-06. I usually advocate for a .308 over a .30-06, but if you don't want to go into a magnum, then at least a .30-06 gets you one weight class heavier bullet at the same or slightly higher velocity than a .308.

You can toss a 180gr at the same or slightly higher velocity than a 168 out a .308. Doesn't give you hundreds of yards more effective range, but you can stretch things out another 10, 15% for similar drop and wind drift. And hit harder and deeper at the same time.

If you really need to go budget, here you go https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting...es/howa-1500-hogue-bolt-action-rifle/p/p52615

The Howas are generally very accurate. Best rifle in the universe? Nope. But my 1500 mini 20" heavy in 6.5 grendel and 22" standard in .223 are both very accurate, nice slick rifles. The full sized 1500s are also supposed to be very good.

You can get them in .308, .30-06, 300 win mag and a bunch of other calibers.

 

[lazarus]

Not that I am an expert here but when I see folks with experience lean towards cartridges more powerful than 308 it seems like a longer barrel to increase projectile velocity for your 308 may make sense. Wish you the best of luck on your hunt.

Oh, I missed that in OP's post.

Yeah, 18 is a big nope. Especially if only sticking with a .308. Out west you'll have less issues about moving through thick woods and maneuvering the gun. Sure you don't want more weight than absolutely necessary, but in this case it is. A 24" .30-06 for a 180gr is going to run you around 2700-2800fps. Out of an 18" barrel, a .308 is going to run you around 2500fps for a 168gr or 2400fps for a 180gr.

A loss of around 150fps compared to a 24" and a loss of around 6% in range and 12% in hitting power at the same range. Not the end of the world, but if you are down around a .308, you are going to want to be eking every last bit of performance out of it, not neutering it further by going with a short barrel.

 

[ohen cepel]

I think an 18in .308 out west for elk would be very, very, tough. Could be done, if you are an amazing hunter and have good luck/lots of time to get close.

What does your SIL/guide say? If he thinks he can make that happen then (he's an amazing guide), maybe, give it a try. If he hesitates for a second though I would not do it.

 

[gwchem]

I've got my 18" .308 pushing 150 grain sst bullets at 2800 fps with the Hornady super performance ammo. 2450 with 175 smk's.

The SST is fine for deer, but rated low for elk.

I'd get a .300 win mag and pick a good bonded bullet. Or 7mm rem. Something like that. 175-200 grain, above 2800 fps.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Second part first :

For rifle characteristics , what you want is Old School " Standard Sporter " configuration . ie +/- 22 in medium profile bbl , weight in 7.5- 8 lb range .

First part second :

Will a .308 Win kill an Elk ? Duh . of course . Substitute a Maryland collarary would be Will .223 kill a deer .

Conventional Wisdom for Elk Rifles On Purpose are for a little more downrange energy , or a little flatter trajectory , or both .

The cliche mainstream choices have 7mm Ren Mag . and .300 Win Mag ( or nsll
Ballistically similar other .300 ).

Rough rule of thumb - 7mm RemMag will have approx .30-06 recoil , but both flatter trajectory . and more down range energy .

.300 will have similar trajectory but with .30 cal bullet , and recoil one notch up from .30-06 .

 

[E.Shell]

I see the OP is getting a lot of good advice here.

I can add a little info that may be helpful...

No question a .308 can humanely kill elk. Many people do it. With a perfectly placed shot on a perfectly positioned animal, even a .22 LR is deadly and I have seen MANY 1,200 pound steers killed with a .22. It becomes a matter of degrees, based on power vs placement. Larger calibers offer more flexibility in both placement and in acceptable shot angles, but on to the .308...

First, the .308 at ANY distance will benefit by going to a 20" barrel vs 18", in the form of less lost velocity. The reason I say this is that I've got a 20" .308 LTR and the drop/drift is noticeably more than my 26" barreled .308, and it is generally acknowledged that 20" is about as short as one should go before losing substantial performance. Shortening the barrel of a .308 has minimal effect between 26" and 22", and increasing effect from 22" to 20", and going to 18" and shorter starts to show more drastic velocity loss. This has to do with the .308's case capacity and how much barrel it needs to fully consume the powder charge.

Then, as pointed out above, western hunting usually entails shooting distances routinely longer than ours. This means two things:
One; drop and drift are more difficult to manage, and every bit of velocity and ballistic efficiency one can gain helps reduce the effect of relatively minor ranging errors, and
Two; bullet performance, both penetration and expansion, fades pretty quickly as one increases distance. A bullet from 18" .308 is already being challenged by velocity loss and it only gets worse as one increases distance.

The suggestions to use a larger cartridge are well-based in fact. The single biggest difference is going to be shots one must decline vs how many opportunities may be presented. One of my former students, a superb shot, kills two elk a year. One is typically a cow or gnarly little bull that is the result of a cull hunt, the other is a trophy animal.

He uses a .260 with Barnes 120 grain TSX bullets to shoot his cull, because there are many opportunities and he can both pick his shot and then carefully place his bullet. Last one I spoke with him about was a walking broadside shot at 300, and the bullet went through the heart & lungs and stuck under the skin on the far side. The little bullet performed beautifully, but had the animal run off into thick cover, there would have been very little blood trail to follow due to no exit wound. There are many shots he must decline, shots like quartering away and quartering to, where one bullet must penetrate the paunch and any stomach contents and the other must penetrate heavy bone. Declining these shots is not big deal, because where he hunts he gets many opportunities, but he would be very disappointed to decline such a shot on a once-in-a-lifetime bull.

On his trophy hunts, he uses a .300 WinMag with Barnes 180 TSX bullets. He KNOWS the .260 will kill elk just fine, with the perfect aspect angle and a perfect shot, but when hunting trophy animals, where that one quartering shot opportunity is all he gets, he wants to be able to take that shot with confidence. He has shot several very nice bulls with this rig and not all were the perfect standing broadside shots that many people seem to envision as common, but all were harvested.

While the 18"-20" .308 is somewhere in between these two examples, it is much closer to the .260 in that there will be many possible shots that a conscientious hunter would have to decline, while a bigger gun could have put meat in the freezer. If this doesn't matter and one can carefully pick and place their shots, the short-barreled .308 can work.

Once it is decided to use the .308, I would suggest using Barnes bullets. I saw where Nosler Partitions were suggested above. They are great bullets and I am a big fan when used in 'enough gun', but the advantage Barnes has is that they can use a lighter weight bullet to achieve nearly the same expansion and penetration results. The lighter bullet is an advantage in the .308 because it can be driven substantially faster, which is going to help mitigate the velocity handicap a short-barrel .308 will have. A 150 grain Barnes can be driven as fast as a conventional 150 grain bullet, but will perform much more like a conventional 165 or 180 grain on game.

Just a quick note about shooting really long shots, no matter what customary caliber is selected: Bullet performance at extended ranges is typically poor.

Even though I have confidence in my ability to hit what I'm shooting at, if my bullet is moving too slowly to expand, there is an excellent change of losing the animal, even with a good hit. I saw a whitetail deer shot at a little past 800 yards with a .300 WinMag using a 180 Nosler Ballistic Tip and the wound channel was not much worse than what one would see with an FMJ. I have shot several whitetails at 600-700 yards with 6.5mm 120 Ballistic Tips and the bullets passed through with very little damage. In fact, one such occasion, my spotter told me I had missed as the animal walked off, and had I not had confidence in my shot, I would not have bothered to go look for it. It was dead 50 yards from being hit. These same bullets, at average eastern hunting distances, have a reputation for over-expansion and excessive meat damage. I have seen literally hundreds of different bullets shot into firm dirt at distances from 200 to 1,200 yards and at the longer ranges, most bullets don't open up at all. The singular exception has been the .338Lapua, which is hurling a big heavy bullet with an excellent ballistic coefficient. It retains velocity well and the scale is such that the bullets continue to expand, or at least deform substantially, at extended ranges.

Lest we digress into an ethics debate, I will keep this VERY short. When one considers the lack of expansion that is probable at long range, the extended time of flight vs the inclination for the animal to take a step, the difficult in finding the exact spot the animal was standing with the likelihood of a very poor or absent blood trail, there IS definitely a point at which the shot should be declined in the interest of humane and ethical hunting.

 

[engineerbrian]

Backfire is a great YouTube channel that covers a lot of hunting rifles and calibers. He also lives out west so his opinions are based on hunting the western states.

https://m.youtube.com/c/Backfire

 

[Bountied]

If you are dead set on 308, I will not address any other cartridges or bore diameters. Two of my close associates are former elk guides (new mexico and colorado) and generally advocate for higher performance cases but they both are comfortable hunting at extended ranges (one just took an elk at over 700 last year).

If you are sure you can get within three hundred yards and be afforded an acceptable presentation, there are plenty of people killing elk with 308. Bullet selection is FAR more important than bore diameter, within reasonable limits, on tissue. With your self imposed limit of 300, I'd say that you should be looking at the Nosler partition as it affords you an extremely broad spectrum of effective killing shots even with the 308 driving it. The next option would be one of the midweight or heavy for caliber accubond offerings.

As for rifle selection, that's more about fit and your tolerance for weight than performance. My "big critter gitter" is a sako 75 in 338wm. I don't have any intention of using it at extended ranges (have plenty of precision rifles for that) but the sako is a thin barrel, plastic stock that is light enough, weather resistant enough, and powerful enough for me to consider anything in the americas fair game (with the right projectile). Used, the 75s will be at the top of or over your price point but are excellent rifles. Used tikkas will be a bit less and are also excellent. Try to find a stainless one (not as common on the used market).

Hornady ELD-X 178gr bullets are very accurate and work very well. When I went hunting in SA the guide couldn't believe the damage the ELD-X did on a Blesbok at 400 yds and the Gemsbok crumpled up on the first round at 150 yds. I also blew the leg off of a warthog with that bullet. I was shooting a S&W 1500 with a 20" barrel, I was able to hit a 18" target at 1000 meters with that rifle also.

 

[4g64loser]

Hornady ELD-X 178gr bullets are very accurate and work very well. When I went hunting in SA the guide couldn't believe the damage the ELD-X did on a Blesbok at 400 yds and the Gemsbok crumpled up on the first round at 150 yds. I also blew the leg off of a warthog with that bullet. I was shooting a S&W 1500 with a 20" barrel, I was able to hit a 18" target at 1000 meters with that rifle also.

I won't get into the dirty details of every reason but I despise hornady projectiles. In short, the eld jackets are hot garbage. They copper foul in top shelf barrels that exhibit no coppering with ANY J4 jacketed bullets, I've personally blown up a LOT of hornady bullets with witnesses and I've been present for many, many, more hornady bullets blowing up (in midair, not in tissue).

More related to OP, of the several guys I know that shoot elk regularly (two were guides), only ONE will use a hornady bullet and it is over 200gr and running a solid 3000-3020fps.

 

[TI-tick]

FWIW my CA neighbor has for at least 20 years hunted Elk in WY. Harvests too as he shares with me.

He ran with 300 Win mag Tikka Lite up until recently when he switched over to 308 or 30-06, I can't recall exactly the caliber but it was not Magnum.

IIRC he told me the 300 WM was beating the shit out of his shoulder so he changed up. He's in his late 50's, truck driver, needs his shoulders for work. About 5'8" med build.

YMMV