.223 bullet selection for home defense AR

[Pinecone]

Yeah, I am not the least bit worried about the legal ramifications of using handloads. Has there actually been a case where a home invader won a judgment for somebody using handloads instead of factory ammunition? Would it matter if I shot the guy with a .50 BMG versus a .223? Of course, no matter what, anybody can sue anybody. It is whether they prevail that matters.

I have actually had more factory shotgun shells fail me than reloaded shells. Two factory loads actually had the hull separate from the brass. Not a good thing when the hull is stuck up in the barrel. With new brass and new primers, the chance of having a failure is pretty much nil if the reloader knows what he is doing.

http://www.gunforums.net/forums/gen...andloads-caused-problems-court-mas-ayoob.html

Your choice.

Not necessarily the ONLY factor, but it can be a factor and cause issues at trial.

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

I can hold a rifle on target much better than a handgun at any range.

Cool. Now, can you do the same in a house, at night in the dark, while freaking out because someone just came in your house you don't know ?

The "controlled environment" of a shooting range has nothing to do with the thread.

Basically what this thread is dealing with is the watching of too many police shows on TV. Real life situations don't include walking around your house in the dark with a rifle, laser, and flashlight, looking for a Perp...

Sort of like prepping for Zombie invasions or what the hell ever them kids are fantasizing about with that silliness.

 

[Mickey the Dragon]

Cool. Now, can you do the same in a house, at night in the dark, while freaking out because someone just came in your house you don't know ?

The "controlled environment" of a shooting range has nothing to do with the thread.

Yes. Between the light, the optic, and the fact that it's generally easier to control and naturally "point" a long weapon, I feel more comfortable using an AR-15 than a handgun. And I believe that Alan3413 was using the term range to indicate the given distance between himself and his target, rather than a "controlled environment" where one goes to shoot.

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

Yes. Between the light, the optic, and the fact that it's generally easier to control and naturally "point" a long weapon, I feel more comfortable using an AR-15 than a handgun. And I believe that Alan3413 was using the term range to indicate the given distance between himself and his target, rather than a "controlled environment" where one goes to shoot.

Yeah you might be right. Coffee is a bit slow to go this morning. My apologies. Wake up. Come back. I just don't grasp the whole thing of walking around the house with a rifle in a real life situation. Ah heck it doesn't really matter the chances of something like that happening are slim to none anyway, but, I guess prepping is all fine and dandy. I guess in the "heat of the moment" I'd simply be grabbing for a gun and not worried about what's in it. Just making a loud bang is enough to scare someone away.

 

[jimbobborg]

If you've never been woken up in the middle of the night by a strange noise or your dog barking, the whole foggy feeling thing doesn't apply. Anything like that and your adrenaline fires right up.

 

[RCH]

I can handle a pistol with one hand while using my other hand for grabbing things, people,etc... than I can manipulating a rifle with one hand that's for sure.

Pretty easy to do with an AUG or a Tavor, plus they are very compact for moving about the house- if you must. Add in some electronic muffs and you have a big advantage over the intruder.

 

[90gsx]

If you've never been woken up in the middle of the night by a strange noise or your dog barking, the whole foggy feeling thing doesn't apply. Anything like that and your adrenaline fires right up.

This^^

I have quickly woken up from a deep sleep several times in situations like that and I was wide awake and alert. No foggy feeling what so ever.

My primary HD is my handgun. My AR is loaded with FMJ and will be used if the shit really hits the fan.

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

If you've never been woken up in the middle of the night by a strange noise or your dog barking, the whole foggy feeling thing doesn't apply. Anything like that and your adrenaline fires right up.

LOL you might be right. I live in a neighborhood on a street with 60 houses and there are all of about 6 residents in these houses because everyone is moving away or dying off around here. I have lived here in IH my entire life and I have no concept of "Home Invasion" or B&E issues. Nothing happens in this town and the worst case is some late night drug dealing by the local pot kids and maybe a shed on fire. IH is a pretty boring town with a very low population and that's why I live in it.

I guess that is the reason for my inability to grasp the concept of why anyone has to go through so much over-thinking about what kind of bullet to use to shoot at someone. I figure If I pull a gun out to defend myself and the first gun I grab is going to make a nice hole and a loud bang I'm confident that Perp ain't gonna be a showing his face around here again, and... news travels fast in a small town.

That Mossberg 500 is leaning in the corner right next to me everyday and night. It's not in the case because the case is currently being used for another shotgun, but, there is ALWAYS and gun leaning in that corner and some #5 Copper Plated reloads are right beside it.

If my old 16 gauge single shot is laying in that corner... that will work just fine too 'cause it ain't filled with cotton balls.

 

[Alan3413]

Cool. Now, can you do the same in a house, at night in the dark, while freaking out because someone just came in your house you don't know ?

Actually yes.

Severe stress can affect motor control. In an "Oh shit" situation, I can hold a rifle much better than a pistol. If nothing else, the braced rifle will shake less than a pistol held at arms length.

Without going into details, there are multiple locations inside my home to engage where I will have the advantage. The target will be well lit with no cover and with very limited choice of movement. I will have concealment and be in darkness. I won't be running around the house hoping to bump into someone.

Looks like someone's been reading too many zombie invasion threads

 

[Russ D]

I'd take a short rifle over a pistol every time and for every scenario. I'm not saying it compares directly but police do not enter houses with just pistols if they have time to plan, for a reason.

 

[mckkelso]

If I have to shoot it's not going to be to make a loud bang and scare someone away there is a line you cross it to where I have to discharge a firearm than it will be more than one hole because until they are on the ground no longer a threat my finger keeps pressing the trigger type of ammo is all a matter of circumstance each type has its place ie. don't want to use bird shot for deer or slug for ducks. It's all about what fits ur personal needs and the situation you are likely to be confronted with.

 

[jimbobborg]

LOL you might be right. I live in a neighborhood on a street with 60 houses and there are all of about 6 residents in these houses because everyone is moving away or dying off around here. I have lived here in IH my entire life and I have no concept of "Home Invasion" or B&E issues. Nothing happens in this town and the worst case is some late night drug dealing by the local pot kids and maybe a shed on fire. IH is a pretty boring town with a very low population and that's why I live in it.

I guess that is the reason for my inability to grasp the concept of why anyone has to go through so much over-thinking about what kind of bullet to use to shoot at someone. I figure If I pull a gun out to defend myself and the first gun I grab is going to make a nice hole and a loud bang I'm confident that Perp ain't gonna be a showing his face around here again, and... news travels fast in a small town.

That Mossberg 500 is leaning in the corner right next to me everyday and night. It's not in the case because the case is currently being used for another shotgun, but, there is ALWAYS and gun leaning in that corner and some #5 Copper Plated reloads are right beside it.

If my old 16 gauge single shot is laying in that corner... that will work just fine too 'cause it ain't filled with cotton balls.

I've lived and worked in some pretty crappy places. The guy you just shot may have decided that taking Angel Dust or Bath Salts is a great idea right before kicking down your door. One shot isn't going to scare him, it will take multiple shots to put him down. Expecially with bird shot. Even a head shot with that isn't going to be effective unless you are in contact distance.

 

[IndispensableDestiny]

http://www.gunforums.net/forums/gen...andloads-caused-problems-court-mas-ayoob.html

Your choice.

Not necessarily the ONLY factor, but it can be a factor and cause issues at trial.

I'm aware of that posting by Mr. Ayoob. That handloads screw up gun shot residue cases is of no matter to me. In State of NH v. Sgt James Kennedy the argument had no effect. See:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-172213.html#post2129976

For lots of back and forth.

I do like this gem from that thread:

There's a theoretical downside to every choice you may make . . .

* Use ammo the cops use, and you're "A Walter Mitty LEO-wannabe." (Police standard ammo has been made an issue in officer-involved shootings!)

* Use FMJ ammo, and you're using "military warfighting ammo, made for extreme penetration."

* Use HP ammo, and you're "using dum-dums, banned by the Hague Accords."

* Use generic ammo like WWB, and "you're for killing on the cheap."

* Use premium ammo, and "You'll spare no expense to commit murder."

* Handloads? "Factory ammo wasn't deadly enough . . ."

 

[Xshot]

If my old 16 gauge single shot is laying in that corner... that will work just fine too 'cause it ain't filled with cotton balls.

Haha that's good stuff

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

Haha that's good stuff

Man I don't overthink stuff. I pull the trigger with something that stings no ding dong is gonna stick around to see if the second hurts like the first.

 

[Mickey the Dragon]

Man I don't overthink stuff. I pull the trigger with something that stings no ding dong is gonna stick around to see if the second hurts like the first.

Pain and surprise are very poor methods for ending a gun fight. The FBI report entitled "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" specifically addresses the reasons why people stop fighting, and it's usually not because someone causes them pain.

Physiological factors may actually play a relatively minor role in achieving rapid incapacitation. Barring central nervous system hits, there is no physiological reason for an individual to be incapacitated by even a fatal wound, until blood loss is sufficient to drop blood pressure and/or the brain is deprived of oxygen. The effects of pain, which could contribute greatly to incapacitation, are commonly delayed in the aftermath of serious injury such as a gunshot wound. The body engages survival patterns, the well known "fight or flight" syndrome. Pain is irrelevant to survival and is commonly suppressed until some time later. In order to be a factor, pain must first be perceived, and second must cause an emotional response. In many individuals, pain is ignored even when perceived, or the response is anger and increased resistance, not surrender.

And the conclusion of the report:

Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Here's a link to the full report, for those of us who don't qualify basic research as "over-thinking" things.

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

Please note, this article addresses only handgun effectiveness and does not account for fragmentation damage, which is an effective wounding characteristic of modern rifle rounds.

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

Pain and surprise are very poor methods for ending a gun fight. The FBI report entitled "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" specifically addresses the reasons why people stop fighting, and it's usually not because someone causes them pain.

Stop on by sometime and lets give that old WesternAuto 16 gauge a test run sometime with one of my reloads and then let me know if you're going to be proceeding or retreating. I figure you're a Human and your response to the unrequested procurement of my shotshell will make you just as good of a test dummy as any other Human.

After-all, I'm still trying figure out why the OP is so concerned with "grouping" in a home interior situation. Either he's more concerned with the bullets performing at a shooting range or he has a humongous house with really large rooms and 50 yard hall ways.

 

[Mickey the Dragon]

Stop on by sometime and lets give that old WesternAuto 16 gauge a test run sometime with one of my reloads and then let me know if you're going to be proceeding or retreating. I figure you're a Human and your response to the unrequested procurement of my shotshell will make you just as good of a test dummy as any other Human.

After-all, I'm still trying figure out why the OP is so concerned with "grouping" in a home interior situation. Either he's more concerned with the bullets performing at a shooting range or he has a humongous house with really large rooms and 50 yard hall ways.

I don't care if you want to use #5 shot as a home defense weapon. I'm simply trying to provide fact based information to the OP and others who are trying to find an effective home defense load. As soon as you can find some sort of fact-based defense for using birdshot for self-defense, I welcome your addition to the discussion. But your post above is the equivalent of asking someone "Do you want to be slapped in the face?" and, when they say no, determinig that open-hand slapping is an effective deterrant against a determined attacker.

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

I don't care if you want to use #5 shot as a home defense weapon. I'm simply trying to provide fact based information to the OP and others who are trying to find an effective home defense load. As soon as you can find some sort of fact-based defense for using birdshot for self-defense, I welcome your addition to the discussion. But your post above is the equivalent of asking someone "Do you want to be slapped in the face?" and, when they say no, determinig that open-hand slapping is an effective deterrant against a determined attacker.

My invitation is always open. Frange away gents.

 

[Russ D]

My invitation is always open. Frange away gents.

Hey it's your life, but I plan on shooting until the threat is no longer a threat.