.223 bullet selection for home defense AR

[Mickey the Dragon]

Whatever you choose, PLEASE use factory ammo and not handloads.

There are 2 primary reasons for this:
- regardless how good of a hand loader you are, factory ammo is simply more reliable. Especially when considering used vs new brass

- the legal implications if using hand loaded vs factory ammo can be huge, especially in this state.

Personally, I say choose a purpose made self defense/law enforcement round. Again, mainly due to legal issues.

For me, I prefer a pistol caliber carbine for inside the home. You get the control and recoil advantages of the AR/ rifle platform, larger cavity size of a pistol round, and less risk of over penetration. Outside, different story.

I agree with everything except for the portion in bold. I've seen some tests that show a 5.56 round breaking apart and penetrating far fewer walls and other tests that show the same level of penetration. But I've never seen any study that indicated a 5.56 round would penetrate more walls than a handgun round intended for self defense.

The following study indicates that 5.56 has significantly lower wounding potential after travelling through drywall than either .40 HP or 00 Buckshot.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?op...information&catid=13:technical-info&Itemid=26

 

[fabsroman]

I vote for a handgun. "point and click" I can't see trying to aim with a rifle in the dark. This "home defense" and "Zombie" bullet stuff baffles me to no end.

The data shows that the damage done with a handgun is nowhere near the damage done with a rifle or shotgun. Less people survive being shot with a long gun versus a handgun.

Think I am just going to go with a 7.62x39, .300 BLK, or a .458 SOCOM for home defense. I'll leave the .223 for long range "plinking".

I also have several shotguns and sabots in the safe with them. Just a lot harder to shoot follow up shots with them versus the AR, the AR has way more mag capacity, and the AR in carbine length with a collapsible stock is shorter than the shotguns I have. A Benelli M4 is on next year's short list though.

Lastly, I do have 3 kids in the house and their bedrooms are on the opposite side of mine. So, over penetration could be an issue for me. Slugs/sabots will surely go through a bad guy and it is tough to get every single piece of buckshot in the bad guy.

 

[fabsroman]

Whatever you choose, PLEASE use factory ammo and not handloads.

There are 2 primary reasons for this:
- regardless how good of a hand loader you are, factory ammo is simply more reliable. Especially when considering used vs new brass

- the legal implications if using hand loaded vs factory ammo can be huge, especially in this state.

Personally, I say choose a purpose made self defense/law enforcement round. Again, mainly due to legal issues.

For me, I prefer a pistol caliber carbine for inside the home. You get the control and recoil advantages of the AR/ rifle platform, larger cavity size of a pistol round, and less risk of over penetration. Outside, different story.

Yeah, I am not the least bit worried about the legal ramifications of using handloads. Has there actually been a case where a home invader won a judgment for somebody using handloads instead of factory ammunition? Would it matter if I shot the guy with a .50 BMG versus a .223? Of course, no matter what, anybody can sue anybody. It is whether they prevail that matters.

I have actually had more factory shotgun shells fail me than reloaded shells. Two factory loads actually had the hull separate from the brass. Not a good thing when the hull is stuck up in the barrel. With new brass and new primers, the chance of having a failure is pretty much nil if the reloader knows what he is doing.

 

[pbharvey]

You don't have to decide between an AR & a shotgun

 

[TxAggie]

I agree with everything except for the portion in bold. I've seen some tests that show a 5.56 round breaking apart and penetrating far fewer walls and other tests that show the same level of penetration. But I've never seen any study that indicated a 5.56 round would penetrate more walls than a handgun round intended for self defense.

The following study indicates that 5.56 has significantly lower wounding potential after travelling through drywall than either .40 HP or 00 Buckshot.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?op...information&catid=13:technical-info&Itemid=26

Thanks for the info, I may have to make an adjustment. I use 9mm so I'll have to look this article over.

 

[TxAggie]

Yeah, I am not the least bit worried about the legal ramifications of using handloads. Has there actually been a case where a home invader won a judgment for somebody using handloads instead of factory ammunition? Would it matter if I shot the guy with a .50 BMG versus a .223? Of course, no matter what, anybody can sue anybody. It is whether they prevail that matters.

I have actually had more factory shotgun shells fail me than reloaded shells. Two factory loads actually had the hull separate from the brass. Not a good thing when the hull is stuck up in the barrel. With new brass and new primers, the chance of having a failure is pretty much nil if the reloader knows what he is doing.

I honestly don't know of any cases, but limiting your chances helps, IMHO. The purpose made self defense rounds generally have better components and specifically use lower flash powders as well compared to normal rounds.

Can you use your loads? Sure. I'm just trying to point out areas whee you could at least reduce your risk of court damages. Either way, the ultimate goal is to defend yourself and your family, so as long as the bad guy goes down that's all that matters in my book.

 

[wilcam47]

This is because Home-Invaders and Burglars have Rights in this country damn it.

yeah in MD they have the right to YOUR stuff

 

[SOMDSHOOT]

The data shows that the damage done with a handgun is nowhere near the damage done with a rifle or shotgun. Less people survive being shot with a long gun versus a handgun.

Think I am just going to go with a 7.62x39, .300 BLK, or a .458 SOCOM for home defense. I'll leave the .223 for long range "plinking".

I also have several shotguns and sabots in the safe with them. Just a lot harder to shoot follow up shots with them versus the AR, the AR has way more mag capacity, and the AR in carbine length with a collapsible stock is shorter than the shotguns I have. A Benelli M4 is on next year's short list though.

Lastly, I do have 3 kids in the house and their bedrooms are on the opposite side of mine. So, over penetration could be an issue for me. Slugs/sabots will surely go through a bad guy and it is tough to get every single piece of buckshot in the bad guy.

data may be on par, but, I'm also confident that if I bust a cap in his ass with this old .38 Special he ain't gonna stick around to play tag.

 

[TxAggie]

The data shows that MISSING YOUR TARGETis nowhere near the damage done WHEN YOU HIT YOUR TARGET Less people survive being shot with a long gun versus a handgun.

Think I am just going to go with a 7.62x39, .300 BLK, or a .458 SOCOM for home defense. I'll leave the .223 for long range "plinking".

I also have several shotguns and sabots in the safe with them. Just a lot harder to shoot follow up shots with them versus the AR, the AR has way more mag capacity, and the AR in carbine length with a collapsible stock is shorter than the shotguns I have. A Benelli M4 is on next year's short list though.

Lastly, I do have 3 kids in the house and their bedrooms are on the opposite side of mine. So, over penetration could be an issue for me. Slugs/sabots will surely go through a bad guy and it is tough to get every single piece of buckshot in the bad guy.

FIFY

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if you have a ray gun, you have to hit your mark.

Use what you are comfortable and proficient with, everything else is academic.

 

[fabsroman]

I honestly don't know of any cases, but limiting your chances helps, IMHO. The purpose made self defense rounds generally have better components and specifically use lower flash powders as well compared to normal rounds.

Can you use your loads? Sure. I'm just trying to point out areas whee you could at least reduce your risk of court damages. Either way, the ultimate goal is to defend yourself and your family, so as long as the bad guy goes down that's all that matters in my book.

If I am not setting a trap for them like a spring gun or something mounted at the front door, I see no way they could prevail in court even if they were to survive the incident. I doubt a civil lawsuit would even make it past the motion to dismiss or summary judgment phase and actually get to trial. Cannot imagine any criminal charges being brought against me for using hand loads. I refuse to live in fear of being sued over defending my family. I need to draw a line as far as this battered gun own syndrome stuff goes.

 

[jimbobborg]

Don't get wrapped up with police requirements as it pertains to HD requirements. As a citizen living in a house, I'm going to say that shooting through car windshields, barriers, and so on are not on the list of things you will likely deal with. You will probably not be taking out a perp at 200 yards with a head shot. What you will be doing is dealing with the possibility of multiple people invading your home while being concerned with your rounds leaving the room at a high rate of speed. I have a Mini-14 specifically set up for this scenario. I'm using 50gr JSPs in a pair of 20 round magazines. I have a light attached to my hand guard. The light is bright enough to light up the entire room, so I can see what's in the room without actually pointing my firearm at anyone in particular. And it's bright enough to temporarily blind someone if their eyes are adjusted for darkness. Recoil isn't bad, and it allows me to do double taps on targets and transitioning to other targets is easy since the rifle isn't very heavy. If I lived out in the country and didn't live in an apartment like I do now, I'd have an AR in 6.8 SPC loaded with 90gr VMAX ammo. That would allow me to make good hits on 200+ lb targets from 0 to 200 yards.

 

[swinokur]

55g Barnes VOR TX solid copper bullets or Hornady TAP FPD 75g if your barrel is 1:7

 

[Alan3413]

I vote for a handgun. "point and click" I can't see trying to aim with a rifle in the dark. This "home defense" and "Zombie" bullet stuff baffles me to no end.

I can hold a rifle on target much better than a handgun at any range.

 

[Magnumite]

"I can hold a rifle on target much better than a handgun at any range."

Goes to show how different people are and their background and exoerience. I feel much more comfortable with the handgun in this application. And I am growing fond of the shotgun.

 

[IndispensableDestiny]

Yeah, I am not the least bit worried about the legal ramifications of using handloads. Has there actually been a case where a home invader won a judgment for somebody using handloads instead of factory ammunition?

No, there has not. Nor has there been a case where handloads were used as incriminating evidence against the shooter. It's an internet legend.

I also reject the notion that factory ammo is more reliable than my handloads. I have never had a handload fail to fire. That's not saying that I've had many factory loads do so, except for rimfire.

If I were to use a .223 AR for home defense, I'd have a barrel cut down to 14.5 inches and the flash suppressor pinned on. Shorter is better, so if you have a SBR, all the better.

I would choose a varmint bullet and small rifle magnum primer. I'm thinking along the lines of a Nosler 60 grain ballistic tip.

 

[frdfandc]

My favorite round is 7.62x54r.

Just the fireball out the muzzle will kill the intruder.

 

[fabsroman]

My favorite round is 7.62x54r.

Just the fireball out the muzzle will kill the intruder, and possibly set the house on fire.

Trying to avoid that collateral damage with the fireball. lol

 

[Pinecone]

In a distance found in a normal house? It will be lucky not to go through, what are we talking 50-60ft at a maximum extreme...

Why would that be? Higher velocity means more violent and faster expansion.

A bullet that is designed to fully expand in a small varmint at 300+ yards may not penetrate very far at 10 feet from the muzzle.

Frangible bullets are normally used to kill animals weighing less than approximately 30 pounds by creating significant damage within the first few inches of the impact point. (These small animals are typically called "varmints.") The frangible bullets that are typically used to hunt varmints are called "varmint bullets."

Expanding bullets are normally used to humanely kill animals greater than approximately 30 pounds in weight by creating significant tissue damage as the bullet passes through the animal. Expanding bullets are generally constructed to (ideally) mushroom to approximately twice their initial diameter as the bullet passes through soft to firm tissue, such as skin, fat, muscle, small bones, and internal organs. The objective is to cause catastrophic damage to vital organs, especially the heart and lungs, so that the animal dies as quickly as possible.

If an expanding bullet is traveling too fast at impact, and especially if the bullet hits a large, hard bone, it may expand so violently that its penetration ceases before it reaches the animal's vital organs. This creates a large and very painful surface wound, but less than immediately lethal damage. Once again, the animal is likely to endure great suffering and travel a considerable distance before it succumbs to its wound or is pulled down by a predator.

Hornady

Explosive expansion, even at low velocities.

Berger

... a bullet tip that is very thin and will expand quickly (impact velocity and animal size will effect expansion results).

 

[Blaster229]

I can hold a rifle on target much better than a handgun at any range.

I can handle a pistol with one hand while using my other hand for grabbing things, people,etc... than I can manipulating a rifle with one hand that's for sure.

 

[Pinecone]

I agree with everything except for the portion in bold. I've seen some tests that show a 5.56 round breaking apart and penetrating far fewer walls and other tests that show the same level of penetration. But I've never seen any study that indicated a 5.56 round would penetrate more walls than a handgun round intended for self defense.

The following study indicates that 5.56 has significantly lower wounding potential after travelling through drywall than either .40 HP or 00 Buckshot.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?op...information&catid=13:technical-info&Itemid=26

Some great tests of penetration:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/