ATF Proposed Rule 41P

protegeV · Jan 5, 2016

fabsroman said:
Yep. The only difference between individuals and trusts now is that an individual needs CLEO signoff, but a trust merely needs to notify the CLEO of the application. Get your Form 1's in while the getting is good.

As already stated, the rule goes into effect 180 days after it is published in the register. I truly wish I had my head stuck in the sand. As more and more laws change, I spend more and more money.

Then, I am going to retire and move to a place where most of this nonsense does not apply. At least I can hope that is the case.

Oh yeah, a trust is still a good way to pass these NFA firearms to family members upon death, but most people were not getting them drafted for that reason. Going to put a dent in the NFA trust business for a lot of attorneys.

Oh trust me, I'm gonna be wearing the efile system OUT in the next few months. Once this goes into effect, I'm done buying NFA unless I decide to get a MG down the road, then I suppose I'll have to submit to the extra BS. An MG is just not in the finances at the moment though. A few SBRs and suppressor certainly are though

dontpanic · Jan 5, 2016

rbird7282 said:
I'm not sure, that's the way I read it but then again I'm not a that bright sometimes. There never was a need for CLEO sign off for a trust, correct?
If there wasn't, then why drop it? Wouldn't make a difference.

There's no mention about individual, only trusts. I woyld say individual still requires CLEO sign off. Trust will just require notification.

Avoiding CLEO sign off and being able to efile have been the biggest advantages of a trust. IMHO

CroftonBilly · Jan 5, 2016

FYI, pages 25-209 (section IV) are all about comments received and department responses. The remaining 64 pages don't take that long to go through. The bulk of them are cost justifications/breakdowns in section VI.

It looks as though all persons included in a Trust (this would also includes the often unrelated Substitute and/or Successor Trustee roles) with the exception of the Beneficiary(ies) will have to submit all the new required information with each application.

fabsroman · Jan 5, 2016

lol - at least they did not pass this on New Year's Day. They waited for Obama to get back from vacation. I am rather irritated at the moment.

Don't know if it is a good thing or bad thing, but I never would own everything I do right now if it wasn't for FSA2013 and Rule 41P. Wouldn't be making a list either of everything I am going to buy over the next 6 months.

Once they stop changing all these firearm laws, I am going to feel rich.

Arcamm · Jan 5, 2016

fabsroman said:
Don't know if it is a good thing or bad thing, but I never would own everything I do right now if it wasn't for FSA2013 and Rule 41P. Wouldn't be making a list either of everything I am going to buy over the next 6 months.

Once they stop changing all these firearm laws, I am going to feel rich.

Word!

If we can just get a Republican president, I might be able to save some money too.

protegeV · Jan 5, 2016

fabsroman said:
lol - at least they did not pass this on New Year's Day. They waited for Obama to get back from vacation. I am rather irritated at the moment.

Don't know if it is a good thing or bad thing, but I never would own everything I do right now if it wasn't for FSA2013 and Rule 41P. Wouldn't be making a list either of everything I am going to buy over the next 6 months.

Once they stop changing all these firearm laws, I am going to feel rich.

Lucky for my bank account I missed the boat on fsa13. I won't be missing this one

HK1911 · Jan 5, 2016

fabsroman said:
Don't know if it is a good thing or bad thing, but I never would own everything I do right now if it wasn't for FSA2013 and Rule 41P.

Same here. Now I'm going to have to get a trust and get some NFA goodies.

erwos · Jan 5, 2016

CroftonBilly said:
It looks as though all persons included in a Trust (this would also includes the often unrelated Substitute and/or Successor Trustee roles) with the exception of the Beneficiary(ies) will have to submit all the new required information with each application.

Not sure I agree. The substitute and successor trustee roles don't have the powers that are needed to be called a "responsible party".

The final rule also clarifies that the term "responsible person" for a
trust or legal entity includes those persons who possess the power or authority to direct the management and policies of an entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or entity. In the case of a trust, those
with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust includes any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust.

I don't know how your trust is written, but I'm pretty sure that mine doesn't give those powers to the successor or substitute trustees until they actually have to act in those roles.

But, yep, seems like it's time to get my shekels together for that Liberty Cosmic 45 before I have to get my wife intimately involved with every purchase.

Hawkeye · Jan 5, 2016

fabsroman said:
Oh yeah, a trust is still a good way to pass these NFA firearms to family members upon death,

Absolutely.

Wonder if this could be changed by a Republican President.

Sure it could. ATF reports to him, through the DHS, right?

erwos said:
Not sure I agree. The substitute and successor trustee roles don't have the powers that are needed to be called a "responsible party".

I agree with that. However, it does make me wonder what the rules would be should the successor trustee have to assume his or her role. Say that the settlor / trustee dies - does the successor trustee then have to get fingerprinted and do that whole dance in order to assume their role as trustee?

I don't know how your trust is written, but I'm pretty sure that mine doesn't give those powers to the successor or substitute trustees until they actually have to act in those roles.

Mine doesn't.

cap6888 · Jan 5, 2016

The upside is that it doesn't require "sign off" only notification. But it is still a PITA. The other upside is that if I fill out my Form 1s for a suppressor and for the two lowers I have on hand, it will be a year before I see them back. Which gives me plenty of time to get money together for the builds. And for Maryland to remove the OAL requirement forSBRs. But I was hoping to get an SBS and to SBR a M92. And that would require money for the purchases AND the Form 1s. Too many decisions to make.

SWO Daddy · Jan 5, 2016

dontpanic said:
There's no mention about individual, only trusts. I woyld say individual still requires CLEO sign off. Trust will just require notification.

Avoiding CLEO sign off and being able to efile have been the biggest advantages of a trust. IMHO

The ATF has clarified on their facebook page that CLEO sign-off is gone for EVERYONE (can't link because I'm at work...and facebook is stupid).

SWO Daddy · Jan 5, 2016

fabsroman said:
Yep. The only difference between individuals and trusts once this rule goes into effect is that an individual needs CLEO signoff, but a trust merely needs to notify the CLEO of the application.

That's incorrect. CLEO notification for everyone, but CLEO signature is gone entirely.

SWO Daddy · Jan 5, 2016

From page 1 of final rule (emphasis added):

...requires that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm, and the specified form for responsible persons, as applicable, be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the applicant/transferee or responsible person is located; and eliminates the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.

SWO Daddy · Jan 5, 2016

CroftonBilly said:
It looks as though all persons included in a Trust (this would also includes the often unrelated Substitute and/or Successor Trustee roles) with the exception of the Beneficiary(ies) will have to submit all the new required information with each application.

That's not how I read it. Only responsible persons.

Drmsparks · Jan 5, 2016

I'm looking forward to sending my wife out multiple times to get fingerprinted and photographed. It's about time she gets to find out what "sensible gun laws" feel like, all because our daughter doesn't like loud noises and will only shoot suppressed.

Klunatic · Jan 5, 2016

CroftonBilly said:
FYI, pages 25-209 (section IV) are all about comments received and department responses. The remaining 64 pages don't take that long to go through. The bulk of them are cost justifications/breakdowns in section VI.

It looks as though all persons included in a Trust (this would also includes the often unrelated Substitute and/or Successor Trustee roles) with the exception of the Beneficiary(ies) will have to submit all the new required information with each application.

So as I read the 41p rule each Trustee of the the Trust must get fingerprinted each time a new application for purchase or manufacture of a NFA item is made. That really sucks as I have 4 Trustees in my trust even if it is $75/person to submit electronically that's an additional $300.00 on top of the $200 stamp!

I would donate to the SAF but from what I hear they aren't interested in protecting NFA access. Who should a donation go to help combat these stupid rules?

SWO Daddy · Jan 5, 2016

Electronically? I thought the prints were done on paper? Most places will do that for ~$15.

dontpanic · Jan 5, 2016

SWO Daddy said:
That's incorrect. CLEO notification for everyone, but CLEO signature is gone entirely.

This ruling only effects trusts and other legal entities. If they took the CLEO signature away totally, they will back pedal away from that shortly.

AssMan · Jan 5, 2016

erwos said:
Not sure I agree. The substitute and successor trustee roles don't have the powers that are needed to be called a "responsible party".

I don't know how your trust is written, but I'm pretty sure that mine doesn't give those powers to the successor or substitute trustees until they actually have to act in those roles.

But, yep, seems like it's time to get my shekels together for that Liberty Cosmic 45 before I have to get my wife intimately involved with every purchase.

I agree. At least the way my trust is written.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dontpanic · Jan 5, 2016

Hopefully this is the link to the ATF facebook posting

https://m.facebook.com/HQATF/

ATF Proposed Rule 41P

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