Maryland firearms instructors being screwed?

[Inigoes]

I don't think the NRA has turned their back on us. They're just saying their course will not satisfy the Maryland Law portion of the HQL training. Well no shit. I also don't think the NRA is going to custom design training courses for each of the 50 states either.

On another note the NRA does offer different insurance policies to their instructors. If you are going to be a instructor. Get insurance.

Exactly!

The MSP needs to get off their lazy asses and publish a cirriculum.

MD DNR covers all liabilities as long as the instructor stays within the material furnished for Hunter Education.

 

[F8L_Funnel]

I have had several e-mails to the NRA Training department about the whole HQL training issue.

Basically, the NRA is not going to help develop, give advice, or guidance concerning what an NRA instructor puts together for the HQL course. The MD HQL is not an educational area of interest to the NRA.

For those of us who are NRA instructors or Training Counselors, we are being advised to offer the classes at our own discretion. Furthermore, we need to advise our students that any HQL class we offer is not associated with the NRA in any way. To that end, I would strongly suggest that any current NRA instructor obtain the MSP Certified Qualified Handgun Instructor or MSP Qualified Handgun Instructor designation and offer the HQL class under that credential.

I am currently checking with the NRA Endorsed Instructor Insurance to see if liability protection for teaching the HQL class is covered. I believe that it is, but I want to verify.

This is why I hesitate about joining the NRA. Why support an organization that spouts off in front of the TV cameras that they are fighting for 2A but when no one is watching, they are just like any other political organization; they stay neutral, until the cameras come back!

With MD being watched nation wide with how our new laws affect it's citizens and it's coffers, you would think NRA would be right there with us trying to keep things civil.

 

[F8L_Funnel]

This is no offense intended to any of you NRA lifers, but anytime money is involved, there are always hidden agendas. Heck there are even very public agendas that the powers to be say," yeah, we did that... so what? I dare you to do something about it." then comes election time and they say "jobs" and "reform" and the mindless zombies come out and vote for the same d-bags

 

[3/2ACR Vet]

Here is an issue that I wonder if anyone has thought of.

In order to get a HQL you need to take this training course, unless you are one of a select few categories. According to the standards I saw today, the training class has to include the firing of at least 1 round of ammunition from a pistol.

Until you recieve your HQL, you cannot buy, transfer, possess, or recieve a pistol.

So how can people who actually NEED the class complete the class without violating the law?

You need an HQL to buy a pistol, but you need to fire a pistol to get the HQL, but without a HQL you can't touch a pistol.

Catch-22?

 

[F8L_Funnel]

That was an issue in minute 1 the day the transcript of the law came out. It is completely mind blowing!

 

[Brooklyn]

I beleive the NRA is capable of doing it (or at least assisisting in the development of a standard course). I am not sure why they appear to be ignoring this market, especially considering the historical reason for why the NRA was founded: education and training of shooters!

I am starting to believe that the NRA has 'written-off' Maryland. I will see just how committed to the fight they are come October 1, 2013. I have heard the plan to file a suit on the constitutioanly and financial impact of SB281. In thirty-three days we will see just how much the NRA is willing to fight for its members in Maryland.

Think about other angles of litigation. NRA stance makes a good deal of sense -- for example how can you argue that the law means one thing in court, but agree to teach others that it means something else ?

The law can be challenged on many levels and NRA must be free to do so--- so they need to walk away...I expected this ....

 

[trailman]

I'm an instructor and this goes right in line with what we have to do to teach Personal Protection inside the home and personal protection outside the home.

First, for the four hour class needed to purchase a firearm, there is a requirement that instruction must be given on Maryland state law pertaining to firearms and self-defense. Rendering legal advice or interpretation is a task for attorneys, and instructors who are not licensed to practice law may wish to seek legal advice regarding the limits of what they can do in this regard.

There is a segment of the course that deals with the legalities of using deadly force. THAT portion as I remember it has to be taught by someone above. You have to get an LEO, attorney etc etc to teach that portion of the course. The last thing you or the NRA wants is someone killing somebody and they say Instructor Trailman from the NRA told me in this circumstance I could cap him. Too much ignorant NRA bashing on this thread.

Also I was going to add this to this thread
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=129252

but I might as well put it here. NO ONE in the firearms community should be training anybody for the reqs for the HGL. Rusty is right, all this crap about getting training spun up only helps the state win its case against us. The state invented it let the state eat it. EVERYONE who should know better knew this was coming and should have taken action to prepare for it. The rest of them tough scheisse. This is a war for our rights and we have to think long term strategy not monthly skirmishes. We want stuff like this to hit people like donors. So they make phone calls tearing up their donee's that they want a gun cause the hood is getting bad but they can't find a class to take. OR the wait is like a year.

 

[mcbruzdzinski]

This is not new , and MSP isn't specifically picking on *Us* . They have always required Instructors to submit lesson plan and course of fire for aproval.

But all the outlines are nearly identical , and all the COF's are closly taken from a handfull of NRA , or FBI NA Cof's . Chat up an existing Instructor , rewrite his lesson plan that he's been teaching ever since he retired from LE , rewrite in your own words , and Vola ! You have a MSP Aproved lesson plan.

There is no specific provision for anyone to submit at lesson plan to MSP. The advisory only states what must be included in the course.

 

[mcbruzdzinski]

Couldn't all of the folks that are NRA instructors band together and create a standard?

See the NRA advisory note about NRA instructor and the MD HQL class.

As an NRA Training Counselor, I have been very emphatic about having any NRA instructor obtain the MSP Certified Handgun Instructor/Qualified Handgun Instructor certifications and offering the HQL class acting in that role. Also to be very careful to emphasize that the HQL class is not endorsed by the NRA Training Department (and by extension, the NRA).

As instructors, we can meet to develop a standard HQL course. I think it is an excellent idea. It may be time for all MD pistol instructors to form a group similar to local MD firearms dealers in order to work on standards for HQL.

 

[DanGuy48]

Ditto the earlier statement about Shannon working hard to fight Maryland's stupidity. Also, FWIW, David Keene (ex pres NRA who lives in Maryland) said some time ago that you can bet there are going to be court cases. Having said that, nothing much can happen until after October 1 when the law can be challenged.

 

[mcbruzdzinski]

Our NRA rep. Shannon Alford was with us the whole time last session. She busted her ass for us. She worked hand in hand with MSI. The new law sucks but, it would have been much, much worse.

Just wanted to point out a subtle disctinction about NRA representatives.

Shannon Alford is the NRA-ILA Maryland state liaison. There are other NRA representatives for the NRA. The NRA and the NRA-ILA, while working on similar goals, are two different organizations. Your NRA dues do not support the activities of the NRA-ILA. That is why we get all the mailings and e-mails for funding.

And I do believe that a challenge will be raised in the courts about the HQL once October 1, 2013 comes around. The question is will the gunowners (current and future) be willing to donate money to fund it?

 

[woodstock]

See the NRA advisory note about NRA instructor and the MD HQL class.

As an NRA Training Counselor, I have been very emphatic about having any NRA instructor obtain the MSP Certified Handgun Instructor/Qualified Handgun Instructor certifications and offering the HQL class acting in that role. Also to be very careful to emphasize that the HQL class is not endorsed by the NRA Training Department (and by extension, the NRA).

As instructors, we can meet to develop a standard HQL course. I think it is an excellent idea. It may be time for all MD pistol instructors to form a group similar to local MD firearms dealers in order to work on standards for HQL.

i agree. if some can't meet in person, technology allows us to reach folks who are off the beaten path, say Southern MD to Oakland MD. Perhaps a thread should be started, in preparation for a uniform HQL set of guidelines? also, after going line by line to the ADVISORY the MDSP put out, i see some very important and fundamental flaws, which could prove fatal if not taught to the novice. More to come...

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

i agree. if some can't meet in person, technology allows us to reach folks who are off the beaten path, say Southern MD to Oakland MD. Perhaps a thread should be started, in preparation for a uniform HQL set of guidelines? also, after going line by line to the ADVISORY the MDSP put out, i see some very important and fundamental flaws, which could prove fatal if not taught to the novice. More to come...

Yay!

 

[trailman]

i agree. if some can't meet in person, technology allows us to reach folks who are off the beaten path, say Southern MD to Oakland MD. Perhaps a thread should be started, in preparation for a uniform HQL set of guidelines? also, after going line by line to the ADVISORY the MDSP put out, i see some very important and fundamental flaws, which could prove fatal if not taught to the novice. More to come...

Why why why why and why are we doing this for the State? How is any attorney going to prove undue burden when the States Attorney who will probably be Frosh by then will just point out. Oh look judge this isn't any issue, in fact the firearms community figured it all out for us, see? They read the bill for us after we passed it, set up training we didn't have for us, golly I'll bet there is even some group out there providing free fingerprinting services to the public for us by now. No issues here move along.



Its amazing that the axiom actually holds true. When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Why why why why and why are we doing this for the State? How is any attorney going to prove undue burden when the States Attorney who will probably be Frosh by then will just point out. Oh look judge this isn't any issue, in fact the firearms community figured it all out for us, see? They read the bill for us after we passed it, set up training we didn't have for us, golly I'll bet there is even some group out there providing free fingerprinting services to the public for us by now. No issues here move along.

Its amazing that the axiom actually holds true. When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

What do you suggest as the alternative?

 

[woodstock]

Why why why why and why are we doing this for the State? How is any attorney going to prove undue burden when the States Attorney who will probably be Frosh by then will just point out. Oh look judge this isn't any issue, in fact the firearms community figured it all out for us, see? They read the bill for us we passed it, set up training we didn't have for us, golly I'll bet there is even some group out there providing free fingerprinting services to the public for us by now. No issues here move along.



Its amazing that the axiom actually holds true. When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

trailman, i feel your frustration, but LAW ABIDING citizens have the constitutional right to firearm ownership. be it for sporting or personal protection. this state is ANTI-GUN OWNERSHIP, and any progress we can make as a collective effort, will ensure the 70 year old ms. jones her right to self defense, or 15 year old jonny jones, his opportunity to participate in shooting sports. that's WHY.

 

[6-Pack]

Generally speaking (as there are literally books and many court cases on the subject, he "practice of law" is 1) preparing a document to be filed with a court, 2) preparing legal documents (wills, deeds, etc...) and 3) giving advice on the law as applied to a specific set of facts. You do not need to be a lawyer to tell someone that adverse possession in Maryland requires a continuous 20 years of using another's land. However, you should be a lawyer if you are applying the law to a set of facts. Stating the law is a fact - anyone can do it. Driving instuctors tell students to stop at red lights, turn on headlights when raining, etc. I wouldn't worry about rending legal advice in the context of a class, especially if you provide a disclaimer that you are not a lawyer, the students should contact a lawyer for specific questions and you are not rendering any legal opinions.

As to the class itself, it looks like the state is giving you leeway to instruct as you see fit. There won't be any liability for an instructor. Even if a student does do something stupid, Maryland is a contributory negligence state, so someone would have a tough time coming after you.

 

[trailman]

What do you suggest as the alternative?

Shut the whole damn thing down and wait. Make the state eat their law. I hate to sound like a prick but the blood at the liberty tree has a lot of patriot blood in it. What everyone is doing here is becoming an enabler for the state. Quite frankly we WANT the general public lining up screaming for their permits and looking for training classes. The gun run isn't going to end in MD just because October 1st rolls around, just in the past day the President put out news of more restrictions

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ol-measures-targets-military-surplus-imports/

Last time I was at BP they were 4 deep buying handguns and these were not the smoke and fire MDshooter crowd. They were regular folk trying to get ahead of what the gov't was doing mostly on a Federal level. These are the people that WE need to get pissed and start making phone calls to their legislators and or be represented by the lawsuit.

trailman, i feel your frustration, but LAW ABIDING citizens have the constitutional right to firearm ownership. be it for sporting or personal protection. this state is ANTI-GUN OWNERSHIP, and any progress we can make as a collective effort, will ensure the 70 year old ms. jones her right to self defense, or 15 year old jonny jones, his opportunity to participate in shooting sports. that's WHY.

Lets get some perspective here, currently in Maryland they do not have a constitutional right to firearm ownership. The governor and legislature has seen to that. WE have to make sure our rush to "fix" something doesn't undermine long term goals.

Its funny how forums work, 1/2 the threads here are about the community helping everyone meet the new requirements and the other 1/2 is talking about how the lawsuit will be conducted and apparently no one is reading each others threads. Forums are echo chambers where all you hear is your own breathing. Helping Mrs Jones get her HGL will just prove FOR the state that these new laws are no big deal.

 

[trailman]

I also just occurred to me that at the hearings someone that was or ran the state trainers testified that there were like 150? state certified handgun trainers at the time and it would take 2.5 years full time to train everyone that needed it. He also pointed out that they were volunteers and had day jobs. Personally (and I say this because I'm a prick), if they had any stones they would all quit. Not like they are losing pay. But they are helping the state erode our and their civil rights.

 

[BRONZ]

Damn Im glad I have my MSP Certified Handgun Insfructor cert. but damn if I want to use it now.