Seizure for Safekeeping?

[PO2012]

Yeah, all fine and good to a point. How about lying to the mother of two young men that they need to come down to the station to be booked and that they will be released on their own recognizance only to turn around and send them to Seven Lochs when they are unwilling to roll over on their friends that were involved in the crime. The investigating officer knew damn well that they were not going to roll over, and lied to their mother to get them down there.

Number one, what were the charges against them? Number two, were they in fact guilty? Number three, how old were they?

My job as a Police Officer is to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Maryland. A large part of that job involves gathering evidence, taking accused persons into custody and ensuring that the guilty are punished and the innocent exonerated. If these young men were accused of a legitimate crime then a vigorous interrogation is appropriate. If they attacked someone or deprived another person of his property without justification then they deserve punishment. Pressuring suspects to tell the truth and to incriminate themselves and other criminals is what we do. Torturing suspects - no. Illegally detaining suspects - no. Withholding food, water, medicine and bathroom breaks - no. Cajoling, pleading, yelling, cursing, appealing, soothing and employing theatrics of all kinds - yes, absolutely.

Justice is like breakfast sausage. Everyone wants it but no one wants to see it made.

 

[PO2012]

Yep, it is a necessary tool that leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, and it isn't just used for murder and shootings, but for simple assault, DUI, speeding, etc. Had an officer lie to me that she paced me doing XX, when I knew for a fact that she didn't because she was on the other side of the road. She lied on the stand too. Had a DNR officer lie on the stand too. She threatened me with charging all 12 people hunting with shooting a mockingbird if I would not tell her who did it. Pretty sure I pissed her off when I told her that she could drag all of us into court but she still needed to prove who shot the mockingbird. She charged me with having a loaded shotgun in the car, which never happened. She couldn't even testify in Court as to what type of shotgun I was hunting with (e.g., o/u, semi-auto, pump).

I do not support or engage in perjury, the making of false arrests or the pressing of criminal charges without sufficient evidence. Any Police Officer who knowingly charges an innocent person with a crime should be dismissed and punished in accordance with the laws of the State of Maryland and the laws of the United States.

 

[PO2012]

Really have to wonder how many people get prosecuted for perjury...

Not nearly enough and that's the problem. We squander so many resources on vice offenses (and I include CDS in that category) that we don't have adequate resources to investigate, prosecute and punish serious felony crime. Starting to lock these vindicate ex-husbands/wives/girlfriends/boyfriends/lovers up and holding them accountable is half of the solution. The other half is getting rid of the Court Commissioners. The fact that these people are allowed to issue arrest warrants, criminal summonses and protective orders without having gone to, much less graduated from, an accredited law school boggles the mind.

 

[fabsroman]

Number one, what were the charges against them? Number two, were they in fact guilty? Number three, how old were they?

My job as a Police Officer is to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Maryland. A large part of that job involves gathering evidence, taking accused persons into custody and ensuring that the guilty are punished and the innocent exonerated. If these young men were accused of a legitimate crime then a vigorous interrogation is appropriate. If they attacked someone or deprived another person of his property without justification then they deserve punishment. Pressuring suspects to tell the truth and to incriminate themselves and other criminals is what we do. Torturing suspects - no. Illegally detaining suspects - no. Withholding food, water, medicine and bathroom breaks - no. Cajoling, pleading, yelling, cursing, appealing, soothing and employing theatrics of all kinds - yes, absolutely.

Justice is like breakfast sausage. Everyone wants it but no one wants to see it made.

You can ask all the questions you want. You will get no answers from me because those questions are irrelevant. Only question is whether I should tell my kids they can trust law enforcement when law enforcement can lie to everybody and their mother whenever they feel like it, with the only exception being the witness stand, though some lie there too.

From what I have seen in my 43 years, the answer right now is that I do not trust law enforcement and I will likely pass that along to my kids. Yes, I know a lot of you are reputable and upstanding, but ALL of you LIE for a living to catch the bad guys. You lie to the bad guys and the good guys. Somewhat ironic that lawyers are considered liars when law enforcement officers are given a license to lie and a license to kill.

Kind of amazing how law enforcement wants us to trust them, yet it does not work both ways. Almost every time I have been pulled over at night, I have been asked "How much have you had to drink tonight". The answer has always been "Nothing" yet I am still given a field sobriety test that I pass with flying colors. So, why ask the question if you aren't going to believe the answer. Just ask me to step out of the car and perform the field sobriety test, or just give me the option of the field breathalyzer. Worst part about those incidents is that I don't drink and cannot stand drunk drivers almost as much as I cannot stand people that treat me like a lying SOB.

I am all for the enforcement of the majority of the gazillion laws we have on the books. What I am not in favor of is the method of enforcement via lying, no knock warrants, para-military tactics, loosening of the 4th Amendment, etc. I know, it is just so dang hard to catch bad guys, yet the prisons are busting at the seams and I am guessing that the population does not trust law enforcement officers enough to invite them into their house when the officer does not have a warrant.

Really, really is ironic that law enforcement lies for a living, but attorneys are the ones with that label. You know, it really is tough getting the charges dropped for those that are innocent. Probably tougher than it is to catch the bad guys.

 

[fabsroman]

I do not support or engage in perjury, the making of false arrests or the pressing of criminal charges without sufficient evidence. Any Police Officer who knowingly charges an innocent person with a crime should be dismissed and punished in accordance with the laws of the State of Maryland and the laws of the United States.

You are but one in a sea of thousands. Statistically, you are irrelevant.

I really do wonder what the general population's attitude is toward law enforcement and whether that attitude has changed over the decades. Guessing there could be one heck of a study done on this, but if the data has not been obtained over the years it makes it extremely difficult.

 

[PO2012]

You can ask all the questions you want. You will get no answers from me because those questions are irrelevant. Only question is whether I should tell my kids they can trust law enforcement when law enforcement can lie to everybody and their mother whenever they feel like it, with the only exception being the witness stand, though some lie there too.

From what I have seen in my 43 years, the answer right now is that I do not trust law enforcement and I will likely pass that along to my kids. Yes, I know a lot of you are reputable and upstanding, but ALL of you LIE for a living to catch the bad guys. You lie to the bad guys and the good guys. Somewhat ironic that lawyers are considered liars when law enforcement officers are given a license to lie and a license to kill.

Really, really is ironic that law enforcement lies for a living, but attorneys are the ones with that label. You know, it really is tough getting the charges dropped for those that are innocent. Probably tougher than it is to catch the bad guys.

I'll make you the following deal: I will stop lying to criminals and their family members and be completely honest, unguarded and forthcoming with them when members of the bar do the same with me and my colleagues. I will lay out every piece of evidence I have, make plain every weakness in my case and state point blank that I do not have the evidence to convict in my face to face conversations with defense attorneys if those same defense attorneys will reciprocate by telling me whether or not their client is actually guilty or not and if so to what degree.

Now I know that you'll never agree to that. No sane defense attorney would. By the same token no sane Police Officer would ever agree to give up his ability to deceive a guilty man and in so doing secure justice for the ones he wronged.

 

[PO2012]

You are but one in a sea of thousands. Statistically, you are irrelevant.

I really do wonder what the general population's attitude is toward law enforcement and whether that attitude has changed over the decades. Guessing there could be one heck of a study done on this, but if the data has not been obtained over the years it makes it extremely difficult.

We're hated now more than ever. There are three major reasons in my view.

First, the fact that society has degenerated. I have more criminals now than ever look at me with a straight face and tell me how resentful they are of the fact that I captured them. Many tell me that they have every right to rob, steal and kill. It used to be that criminals would say "I know it's wrong but..." Now many say "What I'm doing is right and..."

Second, there's been a shift away from real Police work. Traffic enforcement has its place but it was always viewed as a secondary or tertiary priority. Many agencies now consider it to be priority number one, mainly due to revenue but also because traffic enforcement is easy and requires little skill or experience. There has also been a focus on drugs and vice to the exclusion of all else. The Officer who makes twenty arrests for misdemeanor drug possession is a star while the Officer who makes six arrests for burglary is seen as a substandard performer. Meanwhile the public suffers because predators are allowed to run free due to many Officers either not targeting them or not knowing how to target them. This type of Policing leads to less qualified Officers being hired and retained and ever more aggressive tactics being employed to compensate for decreased public support and cooperation.

Third, the economy. The poorer you are the more irritable and liable to resentment you are. There was a time when Police Officers were poor in comparison to the vast majority of Americans. Store owners gave Policemen free groceries not only to curry favor and protection but also out of pity for a man whose salary was perhaps one fifth of his own. Today the tables have turned. Police salaries are often as good, if not better, than most available private sector jobs. The public resents its servants being paid better than they are. If our industrial and agricultural bases hadn't eroded as far as they've been allowed to I'm convinced public resentment of the Police would be far less than it is today.

 

[Bagpiperer]

We're hated now more than ever. There are three major reasons in my view.

First, the fact that society has degenerated. I have more criminals now than ever look at me with a straight face and tell me how resentful they are of the fact that I captured them. Many tell me that they have every right to rob, steal and kill. It used to be that criminals would say "I know it's wrong but..." Now many say "What I'm doing is right and..."

Second, there's been a shift away from real Police work. Traffic enforcement has its place but it was always viewed as a secondary or tertiary priority. Many agencies now consider it to be priority number one, mainly due to revenue but also because traffic enforcement is easy and requires little skill or experience. There has also been a focus on drugs and vice to the exclusion of all else. The Officer who makes twenty arrests for misdemeanor drug possession is a star while the Officer who makes six arrests for burglary is seen as a substandard performer. Meanwhile the public suffers because predators are allowed to run free due to many Officers either not targeting them or not knowing how to target them. This type of Policing leads to less qualified Officers being hired and retained and ever more aggressive tactics being employed to compensate for decreased public support and cooperation.

Third, the economy. The poorer you are the more irritable and liable to resentment you are. There was a time when Police Officers were poor in comparison to the vast majority of Americans. Store owners gave Policemen free groceries not only to curry favor and protection but also out of pity for a man whose salary was perhaps one fifth of his own. Today the tables have turned. Police salaries are often as good, if not better, than most available private sector jobs. The public resents its servants being paid better than they are. If our industrial and agricultural bases hadn't eroded as far as they've been allowed to I'm convinced public resentment of the Police would be far less than it is today.

That's quite a cogent analysis, and the second point is especially applicable in places like Baltimore City, where a collapsing property tax base drives them to seek revenue elsewhere.

 

[Corporal Doug]

Kind of amazing how law enforcement wants us to trust them, yet it does not work both ways. Almost every time I have been pulled over at night, I have been asked "How much have you had to drink tonight". The answer has always been "Nothing" yet I am still given a field sobriety test that I pass with flying colors. So, why ask the question if you aren't going to believe the answer. Just ask me to step out of the car and perform the field sobriety test, or just give me the option of the field breathalyzer. Worst part about those incidents is that I don't drink and cannot stand drunk drivers almost as much as I cannot stand people that treat me like a lying SOB.

Asking how much one had to drink is required as part of a DUI investigation. You cannot just arbitrarily have someone perform field sobriety by not asking them the all important question of how much had been drank. If you say nothing, but odor of an alcoholic beverage is detected then you are getting field sobriety. You do realize that normal citizens lie to us more than we lie to them? Every single car I pull over the driver has some lame excuse as to why they were doing something. Probably 1 in 20 cars I stop the driver is actually honest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Brooklyn]

We're hated now more than ever. There are three major reasons in my view.

First, the fact that society has degenerated. I have more criminals now than ever look at me with a straight face and tell me how resentful they are of the fact that I captured them. Many tell me that they have every right to rob, steal and kill. It used to be that criminals would say "I know it's wrong but..." Now many say "What I'm doing is right and..."

Second, there's been a shift away from real Police work. Traffic enforcement has its place but it was always viewed as a secondary or tertiary priority. Many agencies now consider it to be priority number one, mainly due to revenue but also because traffic enforcement is easy and requires little skill or experience. There has also been a focus on drugs and vice to the exclusion of all else. The Officer who makes twenty arrests for misdemeanor drug possession is a star while the Officer who makes six arrests for burglary is seen as a substandard performer. Meanwhile the public suffers because predators are allowed to run free due to many Officers either not targeting them or not knowing how to target them. This type of Policing leads to less qualified Officers being hired and retained and ever more aggressive tactics being employed to compensate for decreased public support and cooperation.

Third, the economy. The poorer you are the more irritable and liable to resentment you are. There was a time when Police Officers were poor in comparison to the vast majority of Americans. Store owners gave Policemen free groceries not only to curry favor and protection but also out of pity for a man whose salary was perhaps one fifth of his own. Today the tables have turned. Police salaries are often as good, if not better, than most available private sector jobs. The public resents its servants being paid better than they are. If our industrial and agricultural bases hadn't eroded as far as they've been allowed to I'm convinced public resentment of the Police would be far less than it is today.

The public knows full well why crime is up and yet traffic enforcement is a priority. We have eyes.

The problem is the direct their ire and frustration at the wrong target...the police.. take it up with your reps.. .

 

[Mr H]

Just a data point... and not an indictment of officers doing the hard work by any means...

Wife got pulled over on Friday for a minor issue due to a recent change on a roadway.

She is a white-haired teacher-lady, perfect record, never a hassle (or been hassled... until then).

Suffice that yes, some cops ARE dicks for no reason.

 

[Brooklyn]

Just a data point... and not an indictment of officers doing the hard work by any means...

Wife got pulled over on Friday for a minor issue due to a recent change on a roadway.

She is a white-haired teacher-lady, perfect record, never a hassle (or been hassled... until then).

Suffice that yes, some cops ARE dicks for no reason.

Sop in NYC. Have any stickers on the car?

 

[Mr H]

Sop in NYC. Have any stickers on the car?

Only a lot.



Her car is almost as well-dressed as mine is.

 

[Brooklyn]

Only a lot.



Her car is almost as well-dressed as mine is.

They have orders. And they are being deliberately being misinformed.. I have articles from magazines directed at police that imply that such stickers are indicators of a high risk stop.

Its not going away.

This is not BS

 

[Mr H]

Yeah... we've heard that for a few years now.

But it's sad that an officer can't simply use discretion in assessing a driver, and handle the stop accordingly.

 

[Brooklyn]

Yeah... we've heard that for a few years now.

But it's sad that an officer can't simply use discretion in assessing a driver, and handle the stop accordingly.

Its more than rumor. Its not speculation. I think its coming from consultants hired by Blomberg. There are reasons, related to compensation and performance reviews why police will escalate as many stops as possible to 'high risk'. It also helps at budget time... Its an open secret in NYC..

Its coming here. Bet on it.

 

[PO2012]

They have orders. And they are being deliberately being misinformed.. I have articles from magazines directed at police that imply that such stickers are indicators of a high risk stop.

Its not going away.

This is not BS

It's a perfect storm. Young Officers with limited life experience (and often no experience with firearms) who receive inadequate training and are told that everyone is trying to kill them being given their marching orders by politicians with an agenda.

 

[Rack&Roll]

PO2012: Thanks for your detailed explanations and measured commentary on policing policy.

Your posts get straight to the point and and are always educational, especially about what the modern LEO faces when dealing with the pubic that is resentful about so many things that have nothing to do with law enforcement.

 

[rico903]

They have orders. And they are being deliberately being misinformed.. I have articles from magazines directed at police that imply that such stickers are indicators of a high risk stop.

Its not going away.

This is not BS

Any particular kinds of stickers? NRA for instance or just all stickers?

 

[Mr H]

if that was a universal constant, many of us would already be in irons, and I would either be dead or manning a radar station in northern Alaska.