SB 1097 Likely rewritten to eliminate QHIC HQL Wear and Carry instructors

[Mark75H]

Contrary to popular belief, not many of those experiences correlate with teaching concealed carry. It's great advertising, just like young thin large breasted women in beer ads.

 

[rbird7282]

I'm late to the party. But, my understanding is Otwell is not only partner/owner of ATFT but he also is a owner or partner in a security company.

I took a class with with them and he mentioned wanting the requirements to be raised and how other trainers in the area shouldn't be training people with just a NRA cert. It didn't really sit well with me. Supply and demand, less trainers means classes must cost more.

Hopefully that A-hole goes out of business


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Biggfoot44]

He is both right and wrong at the same time.

Warning - Seeming Schizophrenic Split Personality level dichotomy .

Two concepts can be true at the same time , even though they are totally opposed , and irreconcilable .


I have my thoughts as to a desirable level of skills & knowledge , skill of arms , comprehensive defensive , and related tactics for anyone reasonably healthy and physically capable .

I also am adamant about the nature of Fundamental Rights , and infringement thereof .

From a Rights viewpoint , mandated Training or Qualifications are inherently and inescapably Bad . If you held a figurative gun to my head , that I just Had To design a Manditory Qualification , it would be One Round , from One Foot distance , with 10 minute time limit .

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16 hours is a punitive and useless format . It's too long ( and expensive , and time wasted from regular life )for to teach the particular chunk of Maryland laws and abbreviated Gun Ownership 101 .

But waaay too little for my above alluded levels of Desirable Competency .


Further meanwhile , I am realistic that there is a middle ground of skills , such to be reasonably close to adaquately competent , such to usually be able to deal with at least half of potential situiations .

 

[Mark75H]

The 16 hour idea goes much farther back than that. Long before 2013, there were 16 hour classes that exactly followed the old 2013 MD class subjects (kind of suspicious, isn't it?). I know, I took those classes 20 years ago. I also paid about the same price for the class, not adjusted for inflation, but that exact amount.

16 hours is a BASIC BEGINNER ccw class. My students aren't bored in my 16 hour classes. Even young guys you would expect to be zoned out and falling asleep at hours 6 & 7 are still leaning in trying to hear what is being presented. Students pout and frown when I announce shooting is finished for the day on day 2. I'm certain EVERY ONE of my students would stay for an additional hour both days if I offered it. I've had students that told me they were just there to punch the ticket - every one of them said they learned more than they anticipated and were happy with the time and money spent.

Just my opinion.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Many reasons here to do some investigating and talking to the instructor before taking a course. Ask the questions.

TD

With all due Respect for Training Providers of your inclinations , who strive to provide the level of skills and knowledge they feel is * Wise * / They wish to impart - It is truely Two Different Things .

It is not physically possible to take someone from Zero ( or casual recreational plinking ) to Actual Competence in a net time of 8 hrs ( 16hr minus MSP verbatim content , minus running everyone through the mandated COF . ( Yes it is a Training Goal to provide a little bit more , in a few areas . But can't approach Comprehensive , and a degree of subjectivity as to which skills are prioritized to squeeze in .)

The 16hr W&C classes are a Poll Tax . You have to pay , to get Permission Slip .

Actual Competence ( or your thoughtful and knowing level thereof ) needs voluntarily pursuing afterwards . ( Or before for that matter , if that's how you roll .)

 

[Mark75H]

What Miles is trying to say is that there are many instructors out there that only teach to the minimum required standard; for the same amount of time and money a student can take a class that starts them on their way to something beyond the poll tax. If you are going to spend the time and money it should be worth spending.

That has been my class preamble for 10 years.
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.
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.The new required curriculum, which several on MDS pleaded for prior to it's enactment, decreased the hours available for teaching a more than poll tax class. Not only do I advise my students to seek more training, I encourage them to take classes from other instructors to widen their depth of understanding.

 

[miles71]

With all due Respect for Training Providers of your inclinations , who strive to provide the level of skills and knowledge they feel is * Wise * / They wish to impart - It is truely Two Different Things .

It is not physically possible to take someone from Zero ( or casual recreational plinking ) to Actual Competence in a net time of 8 hrs ( 16hr minus MSP verbatim content , minus running everyone through the mandated COF . ( Yes it is a Training Goal to provide a little bit more , in a few areas . But can't approach Comprehensive , and a degree of subjectivity as to which skills are prioritized to squeeze in .)

The 16hr W&C classes are a Poll Tax . You have to pay , to get Permission Slip .

Actual Competence ( or your thoughtful and knowing level thereof ) needs voluntarily pursuing afterwards . ( Or before for that matter , if that's how you roll .)

I agree there are levels of competence, and that a student must practice skills after learning them to improve. Perhaps a change in wordage is in order upon advertising courses.

TD

 

[miles71]

What Miles is trying to say is that there are many instructors out there that only teach to the minimum required standard; for the same amount of time and money a student can take a class that starts them on their way to something beyond the poll tax. If you are going to spend the time and money it should be worth spending.

That has been my class preamble for 10 years.
.
.
.

.The new required curriculum, which several on MDS pleaded for prior to it's enactment, decreased the hours available for teaching a more than poll tax class. Not only do I advise my students to seek more training, I encourage them to take classes from other instructors to widen their depth of understanding.

Yup, agreed

 

[BurkeM]

It is not physically possible to take someone from Zero ( or casual recreational plinking ) to Actual Competence in a net time of 8 hrs ( 16hr

It's possible. Not likely, but possible.

 

[Mark75H]

It's possible. Not likely, but possible.

Bigfoot is right, it isn't going to happen for the average student.

Depends on the student's mental and physical abilities. In my experience, about 1 in 50 people are natural shooters. Cross that with someone who actually gets the whole mental picture and it gets tiny. I can only recall one student that I am certain I took from zero to fully competent. He was from my old neighborhood; our grandfathers and fathers knew each other from childhood. I knew many of his cousins, but had never actually met him before the class.

 

[miles71]

I tell every class after each drill that they have not mastered anything, I instead give them the tools to improve. They are to take the drills and put in the time on their own. Not all, or even most, will.

TD

 

[hillbilly grandpa]

I tell every class after each drill that they have not mastered anything, I instead give them the tools to improve. They are to take the drills and put in the time on their own. Not all, or even most, will.

TD

That's my experience. I remind them that no one will leave the class at John Wick.

 

[BurkeM]

Bigfoot is right, it isn't going to happen for the average student.

As with so many other discussions, it depends on how you define 'competent.'

Task, Conditions, Standards.

MSP defines that term (competence- the Standard) as scoring 70% or higher in a 25 round qual course. For security guards and private detectives, it's still 70% hits out of 50 rounds.

Cover the material, de-escalation, situational awareness, use of cover/concealment, and we exceed the State standards.

Cover proper selection of a defensive handgun, ammo, and a quality holster, and we exceed the standard.

Teach proper holster wear, safely drawing from concealment, and re-holstering a LOADED handgun without injury, and we exceed standards again.

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Define your own level of 'competence' beyond State standards, and most students can rise to your goal.

 

[Mark75H]

The state's competence only regards marksmanship. There is no other competence in the state's eyes, and MSPLD are only following the act of the GA.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Cross Semantics here .

Once again - The Proper Standards to Qualify for a Fundamental Right = None

Any discussion by myself as to desirable levels of Skill at Arms for voluntary persons of good health and physical ability, is akin to suggestions of desirable self study of the fields of History and Economics prior to Voting.

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Big Mike #1 is conversationly using the metric of the MSP W&C Course of Fire . Not directly stated is any possible distinction between Passing or Possible. That IS a metric .

Miles , Mark , and I are all referring to * Something Else * beyond that . How they relate or compare to each other is unknown to me , but each is meaningfully * different * from the W&C COF .

 

[AbolishTheNFA]

So English as a second language teachers should be held liable if one of their students yells "Fire" in a theatre?
Driving instructors should be liable if a student of theirs kills someone while driving?

There should be no point at which an instructor should be held liable in civil court.

I agree wholeheartedly, so why are we requiring this training to be so robust at a time when we all have every piece of information available in our pockets?

 

[Bertfish]

I agree wholeheartedly, so why are we requiring this training to be so robust at a time when we all have every piece of information available in our pockets?

Because it's not training, it's a roadblock

 

[BurkeM]

Because it's not training, it's a roadblock

 

[AbolishTheNFA]

So why are we allowing our legislators to feed us misinformation?

 

[Garet Jax]

So why are we allowing our legislators to feed us misinformation?

It's not just the legislators. It's every politician, every news feed and pretty well every democrat. It has taken decades to reach this point, undoing it will take just as long.