Questions/opinions regarding SB 281

[asdaven]

I already read them. The MSP is only defining rifles that say "Colt Sporter HBAR" as the only exception to SB 281 ,not HBAR rifles in general. And it wouldn't be completing a transaction in another state. It would be intiating and completing a transaction in another state. Anyhow whatever it is, yeah the Commerce Clause allows the Federal Government to regulate interstate commerce. However there is the Equal Protection Clause and the Privilage and Immunities Clause, which can bring this into question regardless of the Gun Control Act of 1968. The ultimate question that needs to be answered is can the Federal Government enforce state laws under the Commerce Clause. This violates the Equal Protection Clause in a way. Because if a Maryland resident goes out of state, that person is treated differently than residents of that other state. I think Federal law can only apply under the Commerce Clause and state laws end at state lines. Somebody should challenge this in Federal Court.

 

[janklow]

The whole HBAR thing is a slippery slope. Dealers are selling various ARs with just HBAR profile barrels. From what I've heard on here and elsewhere is that the MSP is going strictly by the law in that it has to be strictly a "Colt Sporter HBAR". And say "Colt Sporter" on it.

seems like if MSP was going that strictly they'd be able to turn around and get those dealers to knock it off. so it might not be that cut and dry.

 

[asdaven]

Exactly some dealers have been overly cautious about SB 281, which is good. But still at many Maryland gun shows I've been to post October 1st, I've seen many many HBAR AR 15s that arent "Colt Sporter HBAR" but other brands with an HBAR barrels. This has me worried for the dealers too. Thing is from what I've heard for the buyers, police show up at the door and just make you fill out regulated paperwork and let you keep the gun. But they are making people fill out regulated paperwork for HBAR rifles that aren't strictly "Colt Sporter HBAR". Many of these people bought them out of state. Still pre October, the Colt Sporter HBAR was unregulated. But MSP hasnt cracked down on this at the gun shows in Maryland. I wonder if something fishy is going here trying to put Maryland dealers out of buisness by pretending to allow this then down the road cracking down on it and throwing dealers in jail or slapping them with huge fines. What better way to get the majority of the gun dealers in Maryland in trouble in a effort to drive them out of the state or put them all out of buisness. This has me worried. Cant be too careful with the government we have in place. They think most pro gun people are criminals to them.

 

[Pinecone]

If MSP wants to ignore the language on imitations at the top of the list as applying to HBARs, they need to ignore it for ALL firearms on the list. So only AR and AK lines ban copies.

You can't apply the language to only part of the list.

 

[asdaven]

They're not from whatve read. The people who have bought HBAR ARs post October have been visited by the MSP and required to register them because they are not specifically "Colt Sporter HBAR". The dealers are next to be visted by the MSP whenever they decide to crack down on that. From the way I take it, having an HBAR barrel alone is not enough to make it legal. Has to be a Colt Sporter. At least they're just going around making people register them and pay a fee. They could go around and confiscate them being bought post October 1st. Thank god they arent. The law bans all varients of the AK...which includes Valmat and Galil. And all ARs except the "Colt Sporter HBAR". Then the list goes on and then of course proceding It is the copycat weapon clause. This law is not clear cut as people make it out to be. And I think its been purposely made that way to scare gun owners and dealers that they might be breaking the law. To scare gun dealers out of Maryland and gun owners. This law is not as straightforward as it seems and Its one of the first to ban guns by name rather than just solely features.

 

[MJD438]

They're not from whatve read. The people who have bought HBAR ARs post October have been visited by the MSP and required to register them because they are not specifically "Colt Sporter HBAR". The dealers are next to be visted by the MSP whenever they decide to crack down on that. From the way I take it, having an HBAR barrel alone is not enough to make it legal. Has to be a Colt Sporter. At least they're just going around making people register them and pay a fee. They could go around and confiscate them being bought post October 1st. Thank god they arent. The law bans all varients of the AK...which includes Valmat and Galil. And all ARs except the "Colt Sporter HBAR". Then the list goes on and then of course proceding It is the copycat weapon clause. This law is not clear cut as people make it out to be. And I think its been purposely made that way to scare gun owners and dealers that they might be breaking the law. To scare gun dealers out of Maryland and gun owners. This law is not as straightforward as it seems and Its one of the first to ban guns by name rather than just solely features.

Do you have citations for the second sentence? We have seen anecdotal reports of folks being visited due to an ATF audit of a VA FFL, but I do not recall seeing anything from anyone that has purchased a non-Colt HBAR in Md, post 01OCT.

 

[asdaven]

No but I'm just inferring from what I heard of the VA ATF audit. The MSP considered non Colt HBARs regulated. So I don't know how long dealers in Maryland will be able to continue selling non Colt HBARs before the MSP cracks down on it.

 

[Pinecone]

Then why did you state:

The people who have bought HBAR ARs post October have been visited by the MSP and required to register them because they are not specifically "Colt Sporter HBAR".

Those visited by MSP over the VA purchases were PRE-Oct 1 purchases.

So you take the LONG leap that EVERY HBAR purchaser will be visited??????

 

[asdaven]

Then why did you state:



Those visited by MSP over the VA purchases were PRE-Oct 1 purchases.

So you take the LONG leap that EVERY HBAR purchaser will be visited??????

True. But , my point was regardless, these people were visited by MSP and basically told their HBAR didint count under the exception and forced to register them. Only Colt HBAR Sporters did. The police took a litteral interpretation of the law , how do we know theyre gonna do the same in other cases? They probably will. Dealers are currently selling many HBAR rifles that aren't specifically Colt Sporters, Cash and Carry My point is its a matter of time until the MSP cracks down on this too. Then who knows what will happen.

 

[janklow]

No but I'm just inferring from what I heard of the VA ATF audit. The MSP considered non Colt HBARs regulated. So I don't know how long dealers in Maryland will be able to continue selling non Colt HBARs before the MSP cracks down on it.

the thing is, they sold HBARs as non-regulated pre-ban for years and years, which was also something the MSP could have cracked down on, but didn't.

also, the Valmet and Galils are banned on their own, not because they're variants of the AK.

 

[asdaven]

the thing is, they sold HBARs as non-regulated pre-ban for years and years, which was also something the MSP could have cracked down on, but didn't.

also, the Valmet and Galils are banned on their own, not because they're variants of the AK.

Still the laws are in place and they can turn around and decide to crack down on it. This is what I'm worried about. Unless the MSP has told dealers its alright to sell non Colt Sporter HBAR rifles, they could just turn around one day and decide to crack down on it. What Maryland is doing has not been completely been clear cut. And just because the police don't enforce something doesn't mean its legal. If the legislation is in place they can just turn around and start enforcing laws they weren't prior if they please. I think its just a matter of time before the state turns around and start making examples out of dealers and/or gun buyers in this way in a effort to scare dealers out of the state or out of buisness, and scaring would-be gun buyers as well from buying firearms. I honestly think they try to make this law confusing in some aspect to just scare people. I'm not trying to say anything for sure, but I'm just telling people on here to be careful. I'm surprised they didint make SB 281 more vague than it is. What better way to keep people from buying firearms than to have a very confusing law with stiff penalties ,where you need to take your lawyer everytime you go to buy a firearm, so you don't get thrown in jail. Without actually banning the sale of firearms.......hmmmm.

 

[Pinecone]

No, if they crack down too hard, it will end up in court. And they will probably lose.

The law states that the copies apply to EVERY firearm on the list. Then MSP decides (or the AG directs the MSP) that the copies does not apply to the HBAR.

Can't do that. If it applies to the whole list, it applies to the whole list.

(2) a firearm that is any of the following specific assault weapons or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon

My point was you stated that MSP HAD VISITED people over POST Oct 1 purchases of HBARs. That is INCORRECT. You may think they might, but so far they have NOT done so. The only visits had to do with purchases at ONE specific VA dealer.

 

[asdaven]

No, if they crack down too hard, it will end up in court. And they will probably lose.

The law states that the copies apply to EVERY firearm on the list. Then MSP decides (or the AG directs the MSP) that the copies does not apply to the HBAR.

Can't do that. If it applies to the whole list, it applies to the whole list.



My point was you stated that MSP HAD VISITED people over POST Oct 1 purchases of HBARs. That is INCORRECT. You may think they might, but so far they have NOT done so. The only visits had to do with purchases at ONE specific VA dealer.

True. But you also have the copycat weapon clause too. This is why I'm saying this law is not clearcut and has obvious flaws and potential problems. And hopefully we d win in court if they cracked down. But what if they take a litteral interpretation of the clause that allows copies. Then, if its not the same exact copy of the Colt HBAR Sporter, than it could be illegal. Differences such as barrel length, trigger, stock, sights, finish, anything could make it illegal then. My point is even anyway you argue this, if they really want to, they can find a way to determine these rifles illegal under the current legislation.

And yes I realize those are post October purchases of HBAR rifles. Dosent matter. Still, the former regulated list is now the prohibited list. If they're making these people register these rifles that were supposed to be cash and carry, that sets a precident. Theyre considering these non Colt Sporter HBAR rifles as regulated, which former regulated firearms are now prohibited.

 

[Pinecone]

But if they apply the level of test (change in barrel length, trigger, stock, etc) to the HBAR, they have to APPLY THE SAME TEST TO ANY OTHER COPY.

They cannot apply one set of standards to the HBAR and another set of standards to all other rifles on the list.

Actually, they can do anything they want, but would probably lose if it ended up in court.

And the PRE-Oct 1 purchases, not POST.

NO ONE has been visited over post Oct 1 purchases.

This is what you said:

They're not from whatve read. The people who have bought HBAR ARs post October have been visited by the MSP and required to register them because they are not specifically "Colt Sporter HBAR".

You imply that ALL people who have purchased have been visited. That is NOT true. ONLY those that bought from ONE store in VA.

 

[asdaven]

Still, regardless of when they were purchased, the MSP considered those HBAR rifles regulated. There are no regulated long guns now, they're either banned or unregulated. If they were once considered regulated, they are now banned.......I apologize if I was vague and for some typos on my part and made it sound like all people with HBAR rifles were visited by MSP. But that's not my point. They made them register their rifles, which means they interpreted them as regulated. The MD legislature essentially took the regulated list now post October and made them banned.

From the law itself......."Colt AR–15, CAR–15, and all imitations except Colt AR–15 Sporter H–BAR rifle". So, yes all copies are banned except that specific one. The MSP didint just pull this out of nowhere. "All imitations" except that particular one is how I would interpret this.

What really bothers me about this law .....is that there's a section that states something to the effect that police can seize assault weapons as "contraband." It almost sounds like the law allows them to if they do so please. I think its applies just if you "illegally" acquired a "assault weapon", but I don't know for sure.

Not trying to argue with anyone here or saying I know more......I'm just trying to raise some points that I feel that are important. We re all on the same side and are all in this together and believe we should be able to practive America's greatest tradition without being thrown in jail or fined. Theres people on here that know a lot more than I do about this law and what's happening on the ground.

Some parts of the law are clear cut but others not even though when they seem clearcut. Did you see the revised forms of the law, where they crossed all that stuff out?? Yeah some of its fixing typos, removing redundancy, or removing or modifying items they disagreed on. But in other areas they didint have to modify it and modified the language of some items. Like the part where it says people may posess regulated long guns post October if bought before October 1st etc etc. Well they originally had "may continue to posess", they changed it to just "may posess". These subtle changes can effect significantly how the law is interpreted. And you never know, they might be doing this to play a trick on us or to make it easier for future tighter firearms legislation or a gun confiscation. A fair majority of politicians in our current government, Federal and State are sneaky and will stop at no end to get what they want. They'll even trick their opponents in government to pass a bill.

You have to carefully read the language used. The language and terminology could be strategically and tactically placed in the law. If they can't directly get what they want, they ll get it indirectly little by little. Just saying people need to read and interpret this law very carefully. I would love to hear how a firearms lawyer interprets this law.

 

[janklow]

There are no regulated long guns now, they're either banned or unregulated. If they were once considered regulated, they are now banned... "From the law itself......."Colt AR–15, CAR–15, and all imitations except Colt AR–15 Sporter H–BAR rifle". So, yes all copies are banned except that specific one. The MSP didint just pull this out of nowhere. "All imitations" except that particular one is how I would interpret this.

i think we all understand the once regulated=now banned concept, but note that HBARs were sold pre-10.01 as unregulated firearms, so they wouldn't be banned now by this logic.

and despite how you interpret it, non-Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BARs were, in fact, sold as unregulated as well. the MSP did essentially give dealers the okay to do this, which is why dealers did and do sell HBAR rifles.

 

[Pinecone]

From the law itself......."Colt AR–15, CAR–15, and all imitations except Colt AR–15 Sporter H–BAR rifle". So, yes all copies are banned except that specific one. The MSP didint just pull this out of nowhere. "All imitations" except that particular one is how I would interpret this.

You are still missing that at the top of the list is says:

(2) a firearm that is any of the following specific assault weapons or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon

So EVERYTHING on the list is also subject to the copies portion. EVEN THE HBAR.

They are trying able the above language to all things on the list EXCEPT HBARS. And they cannot pick and choose.

The reason the AR and AK sections of the list mention copies and imitations, but the others don't, and the above quote is at the top of the list, is because the list changed a few times. At first there was no mention of copies and imitations. Then they added for AR and AK. Then they added the above quote to apply to the whole list.

Also, the reason Colt HBAR is the only HBAR listed, is when the list was originally done, there were no other HBARs. They exempted the HBAR as it is/was a target rifle. And they wanted to "show" that they were not against target shooting, and only wanted to control the evil rifles that had no sporting use.

 

[asdaven]

But the thing is once something is signed into law, it is law regardless of what lawmakers intended it to be or how they enforce it. New York passed their law and didint carefully revise it and prohibited even police from carrying over 7 rounds in their magazines. Don't what ever happened with that. But that's the law till they change it. Laws are interpreted as written down in the bill, not what lawmakers intend it to be.

There are cases where laws aren't fully enforced. Yes they weren't enforcing this pre ban but still its the law, its still on the books. They can turn around and have the police enforce it, which they may with the way things are headed in Maryland. I really think we re headed towards a ban on all semi-automatic rifles. The HQL is another step as well. Theyre probably headed towards making the HQL license the same as the Maryland CCW license , where you either have to be law enforcement or have a significant reason or threat to get one. And they'll either grandfather the current license holders or let current licenses expire and say you can keep your handgun but can't leave your house or worse all license holders ineligible for renewal will have to surrender their handguns to the nearest police barracks by a certain date for no compensation or sell it to an FFL out of state. The language of this law I feel does not make "assault long gun" owners permanently grandfathered in. And they could change it and force owners of "assault weapons" to either turn them in, take them out of state , or sell to an FFL out of state. Government is getting incrementally more powerful and so are the gun laws.

My point is Maryland has grown even more radical since they intially made that list. Omally is our executive and the one pushing for SB 281. Being the executive, he is going to be the one at the top enforcing the laws. They kept the list and didint modify or make a new one because they were in a such a rush to get the bill pushed through because they felt all the mass shootings called for a need for "emergency" gun legislation. When in reality, they were probably hurrying it along during a time where gun legislation might be a more popular issue than normal so they could get a bill pushed through with the lowest opposition. Basically politically capitalizing on peoples emotional reactions to the mass shootings.

But anyhow yes how the laws written it says no copies. But then what section supercedes what? The prohibited firearms list or the clause about copies. How I read it, if the copies part fully applied, then all AR-15s would banned. The law contradicts itself in many places in this fashion. The list also says SKS with magazine and Mini 14 with folding stock. Well parts can be easily changed out to put a magazine on a SKS or a folding stock on a Mini 14, without modifying the gun. Same with an AR 15, uppers can be changed. The list would make more sense if they said, "Colt AR-15 without HBAR Barrel". But instead they use, "Colt AR-15 EXCEPT Colt HBAR Sporter". So the pretext says one thing. The list says another. Combining the two then it would read " 'Colt AR-15 except Colt HBAR Sporter' and all copies are hereby banned" Hmmm maybe you right. But depends how you read it. "All copies" might only apply to what's banned and not what's allowed. Or this could all cancel and contradict itself and ban all AR-15s or ban only Colt AR-15s, depending how you read it. It basically a legal tongue-twister. They use wording like this on things like the SAT to try to trick you. And this is why this terminology is bad when put in laws. It has a huge potential for abuse. Like I said if they wrote "Colt AR 15 without HBAR barrel," then the law would be much more clear cut.

Not saying your wrong or right, just saying our state is turning more radical by the day and the language used in this bill needs very close scrutiny. And AR 15s happens be one of the most popular weapons on this list. Why of all places in the bill would they use potentially confusing langauge there?

 

[Pinecone]

You need to learn how to read regulations and laws.

The language about the copies that I have cited several times has PRECEDENCE over the actual list. It is in the preamble to the list itself.

The language used to exempt that HBAR is written that way, as it needs to be to work properly. You have to understand the use of language in regulations and laws.

And again, the reason they exempted the Colt HBAR by name, was that IT WAS THE ONLY SUCH RIFLE AT THE TIME. You are also assuming a much greater knowledge of firearms than is possessed by our elected officials. Yes, saying any AR-15 with an HBAR profile barrel would make more sense to US, but we did not write the law.

They had plenty of time to revise the list. Heck, the list has been around since 1996. And SB281 was not written and passed in a week.

And this is not about what they might do in the future. This is about what they have done or are now doing.

 

[asdaven]

I hear you. Still you could argue that the copies section in the preamble only applies to what's banned/regulated, not the exceptions. And we can say yes the Colt Sporter HBAR was the only rifle at the time. I realize that, but they didint revise the list so that's the law as written down on the books. Who ultimately has the boots on the ground and enforces the law is the MSP and local law enforcement. So, whatever interpretation they take of this law and the courts take is gonna be the final say. But, laws and regulations are read in a litteral manner, not what they (the lawmakers) intended it to mean. Unfortunately, someone somewhere is going to have to be a test case.

And I disagree, the future is very important. Yes, the current legislation raises serious questions and is very controversial. I hate this law as much as everyone else. However, look at the bigger picture and what this law and similar laws are helping set up. The size of government has been increasing and so is its control and influence over the people. We re potentially headed towards a outright ban on firearms. Posession, sales, all of it. I'm sorry if I'm being an alarmist here. However, this bill sets up a platform for future firearms legislation. All the more reason we need to fight this. Once the government establishs more power, they will exploit it and take advantage and next thing you know we have a Nazi style police state. Not probable right now but we re headed towards it.