Questions/opinions regarding SB 281

[asdaven]

Hi
Just want to bring up a couple questions/potential issues regarding SB 281:

1st is buying in other states. We can go over to say VA and buy 30 round magazines perfectly legally, but can't buy a rifle out of state that is one the banned list. However, how can Maryland law have jurisdiction over dealers out of state? If an out of state dealer in say somewhere far away like Texas that dosent know about SB 281 and sells to a Maryland resisdent, can that dealer get in trouble? Hes not in violation of Federal law or Texas law. Or does the buyer get in trouble for bringing it into Maryland? Then of course what about someone that moves here with a "banned" rifle?

2nd is modular rifles like an AR-15. HBAR is still legal. How do they enforce the law if somebody buys a HBAR AR and then puts a differnt upper on it? Uppers do not have serial numbers and are unregulated.

Just something to think about. This law was put together way too quickly and shoved down our throats.

 

[Mr H]

No one ever said it made any sense.

Please join us in working to correct the beast during the General Assembly session.

Look for the 2A Tuesday thread, and help us.

 

[johnlax38]

Hi
However, how can Maryland law have jurisdiction over dealers out of state? If an out of state dealer in say somewhere far away like Texas that dosent know about SB 281 and sells to a Maryland resisdent, can that dealer get in trouble?

This is how it works:

- Buy a gun online
- Seller ships to an FFL you identify in MD
- FFL checks ALL LAWS to make sure his transaction with you is legal in MD.

This should answer most of your questions.

 

[Brooklyn]

Hi
Just want to bring up a couple questions/potential issues regarding SB 281:

1st is buying in other states. We can go over to say VA and buy 30 round magazines perfectly legally, but can't buy a rifle out of state that is one the banned list. However, how can Maryland law have jurisdiction over dealers out of state? If an out of state dealer in say somewhere far away like Texas that dosent know about SB 281 and sells to a Maryland resisdent, can that dealer get in trouble? Hes not in violation of Federal law or Texas law. Or does the buyer get in trouble for bringing it into Maryland? Then of course what about someone that moves here with a "banned" rifle?

2nd is modular rifles like an AR-15. HBAR is still legal. How do they enforce the law if somebody buys a HBAR AR and then puts a differnt upper on it? Uppers do not have serial numbers and are unregulated.

Just something to think about. This law was put together way too quickly and shoved down our throats.

Federal law is what gives Md juristiction over sales to Md residents out of state..

On hbars .... just don't do it. There are lots of stupid laws that can't be effectively enforced.. but you don't want to be the test case.

Meanwhile..... the full police state is comming anyway.. so for now just

Join us in Lawyers Mall on 4 Feb 2014 to help slow it down long enough for the rest of the citizens to get s clue..

There is no justification whatsoever for sb281 on fact, imagined fact. or delimited power. Someday journalist will need a licence too.. but that's their problem.. right now we have ours.

 

[swinokur]

According to federal law, long guns can be bought out of state if they are legal in BOTH states.

 

[FoxFirearms]

MD Doesn't have jurisdiction in other states, but you have to register any handgun you bring in from another state. If you buy a banned AR15 (light barrel) and bring it into the state, you caYes...you can say you bought it before the ban, but what if the cop(s) run the serial number an discover it was produced near or after Oct 1, 2013? You're busted. If you want an HBAR AR, buy it here or have it shipped to a MD dealer. If you get a private seller to sell you an AK, say at a WV gun show, don't get caught with it. Eventually the politicians are going to make an example out of someone.

 

[asdaven]

Thanks guys for your input.

Thing is a lot of what is going on is a debate of the American Constitution and not Republican vs. Democrat or otherwise political. But presents legal/constitutional questions. An idea that is good idea is not always a good legislative idea. Neither is taking away rights from those who are innocent. Government has really overstepped what it is supposed to be. I think there is clause in the Constitution that says something to the effect that other states have to respect other states other states laws. I ll have to reread and do some searching on some supreme court cases. The best thing we can do as the pro gun community is do our research and show what the government Is doing is illegal.

 

[swinokur]

It's called full faith and credit

Article IV, Section 1 of the United States Constitution, known as the "Full Faith and Credit Clause", addresses the duties that states within the United States have to respect the "public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state." According to the Supreme Court, there is a difference between the credit owed to laws (i.e. legislative measures and common law) as compared to the credit owed to judgments.[1] Judgments are generally entitled to greater respect than laws, in other states.[2] At present, it is widely agreed that this Clause of the Constitution has little impact on a court's choice of law decision,[3] although this Clause of the Constitution was once interpreted differently.[4]

 

[Pinecone]

Actually MD law does not directly apply to a sale out of state.

BUT, Federal law says that any firearms transaction outside of the state of the buyer's residence, must comply with the laws of the state where the transaction occurs AND the laws of the state of the buyer's residence.

Been that way since 1968.

 

[asdaven]

Yes the Full Faith and Credit Clause, thats what i was looking for......but that can be interpretated in many different ways. That just means that other state legislatures have to respect other states laws. Will have to look into that further. And Pinecone, what was the name of that Federal law passed in 1968? Thing is I would think ordering a banned rifle online would be a no go just because your having it shipped to an FFL here. But if you went out of state in person and had it transfered through an FFL in another state...I don't see how Maryland can have jurisdiction there until you bring the prohibited rifle back into Maryland. What if you own another house in another state where they don't have laws like Maryland and you want to buy one of the guns on the list in that state and keep it there? In addition, that 1968 law, I feel that overreaches the power of Federal law because then the ATF goes around enforcing state laws and our state laws then go out of the boundaries of its jurisdiction. I feel there is some Supreme Court case out there that states that state laws are only limited to the boundaries of the state. Cant remember though. But, another way to look at it, is if your a resident of a state, does that make you the "property" of the state or "subject" of the state? Going to another state, means they have to apply their state laws differently because your a Maryland resident. I just see a problem there. And these laws bring up Fourteenth Amendment questions as well with the Privilages or Immunties Clause as well as potentially the Equal Protection Clause because if your in another state, how can they apply their laws differently to you on the basis that your a Maryland resident? McDonald vs. Chicago brought up the Privilage or Immunity Clause, but I'm surprised nobody has brought up the Equal Protection Clause as regards to state laws applying out of state.

 

[swinokur]

GCA=Gun Control Act of 1968

 

[Alphabrew]

I examined an official copy of SB281 and I am of the opinion that its pages are softer than Charmin, but not as soft as Quilted Northern.

 

[Pinecone]

GCA 68 says that all out of state sales must meet the requirements of both the state the sale occurs, and the state of residence of the buyer.

If you think that oversteps Federal bounds, feel free to test in court.

But you will not find an FFL in the US will knowingly sell an MD resident a banned firearm. It puts THEM at jeopardy of losing their license, losing their 2A rights, and getting a all expense paid vacation to a Federal penitentiary.

And in fact, you will find some FFLs that will not sell you anything at all as an MD resident, to avoid possibly making a mistake and getting trouble.

 

[asdaven]

Im more asking this on the basis if someone from Maryland physically goes to another state and a FFL accidently and NOT knowingly sells a firearm that was prohibited in October. Then what happens? And yeah I feel discriminated against if I goto to Virginia and firearms dealers refuse to sell to me at all just because I'm a Maryland resident. Its absurd. The 1968 GCA raises some questions because how can Maryland regulate what you do in another state if its legal in that other state and under Federal law? One can argue the Commerce Clauses allows Federal control here but still the controversal aspect is can a persons home state dictate what that person does in another state? I feel that there is a Constitutional issue here. Might have to look up some Supreme Court cases. And I don't think Federal authority can enforce state laws but state authorities can enforce federal laws.

 

[MDFF2008]

Im more asking this on the basis if someone from Maryland physically goes to another state and a FFL accidently and NOT knowingly sells a firearm that was prohibited in October. Then what happens? And yeah I feel discriminated against if I goto to Virginia and firearms dealers refuse to sell to me at all just because I'm a Maryland resident. Its absurd. The 1968 GCA raises some questions because how can Maryland regulate what you do in another state if its legal in that other state and under Federal law? One can argue the Commerce Clauses allows Federal control here but still the controversal aspect is can a persons home state dictate what that person does in another state? I feel that there is a Constitutional issue here. Might have to look up some Supreme Court cases. And I don't think Federal authority can enforce state laws but state authorities can enforce federal laws.

A resident of state A doing business in state B falls under the interestate commerece clause. Thats how they do their magic.

 

[GTOGUNNER]

MD Doesn't have jurisdiction in other states, but you have to register any handgun you bring in from another state. If you buy a banned AR15 (light barrel) and bring it into the state, you caYes...you can say you bought it before the ban, but what if the cop(s) run the serial number an discover it was produced near or after Oct 1, 2013? You're busted. If you want an HBAR AR, buy it here or have it shipped to a MD dealer. If you get a private seller to sell you an AK, say at a WV gun show, don't get caught with it. Eventually the politicians are going to make an example out of someone.

AR 15s non HBAR were regulated before the ban. Not sure what exactly what you are trying to say here.

 

[asdaven]

A resident of state A doing business in state B falls under the interestate commerece clause. Thats how they do their magic.

True......thats what the Federal Government is trying to use to control everything including healthcare. However, it can be argued its not interstate commerce buying a rifle In another state physically in person. That is a person buying in another state and taking ownership of that firearm in THAT state. That would be intrastate. Ordering online would be interstate though.

The whole HBAR thing is a slippery slope. Dealers are selling various ARs with just HBAR profile barrels. From what I've heard on here and elsewhere is that the MSP is going strictly by the law in that it has to be strictly a "Colt Sporter HBAR". And say "Colt Sporter" on it. I imagine the Maryland Government will adopt this interpretation soon enough and like said before make an example out of someone, its just a matter of time. I would never really do a private sale with anyone without going through an FFL because there's many laws out there against that especially the Gun Control Act of 1968, which is a commerce clause act. There is barely any gun show loophole at all that so many anti gun people cite.

 

[matt]

Transactions that are out of state must utilize a FFL. FFL generally do not break laws.

 

[MDFF2008]

Your still crossing state lines to complete the transaction; which I believe is the key to defining interstate commerce.

You can see some relevant cases about Federal authority over firearms that are manufactured and sold within the state. IE, does the fed have the authority to regulate firearms that are made in state a from parts made in state a and sold to a resident of state a.

 

[Pinecone]

If the FFL accidentally sells you a banned firearm, when the ATF sees that they did, they will tell MSP and MSP will come visit you. As for what will happen then, I don't want to find out.

See the thread about MSP visiting people and requiring, I mean ASKING, them to register HBARs purchased outside of MD.