PGT&S Fuddism

[alucard0822]

Being relatively new around here, I really don't understand the term "fudd". A few folks have attempted to explain it, but I still don't understand it.

Is it a gun owner that takes the attitude that they don't care about YOUR rights, and they only care about keeping what THEY have? Maybe someone could elaborate what it means, since it is thrown around plenty here on MDS.

Since the thread title contains this term, maybe it's meant as a derogatory term that gets things moving in the wrong direction from the start...

Anyway, I support the OP in his dismay over the PGTS policy, believe he came to the right place to seek support and will support him in affecting a change in their policy - if the plan he puts forth is reasonable. If he needs people to go to council meeting and sit behind him while presenting stock options/pleading his argument, I will be there. It's the people's range and we have the right to ask for reasonable policy changes, which this is.

It came about as a derogatory term for hunters(yup Elmer Fudd) and sport shooters that basically supported banning other types of firearms, especially around the 94 AWB bill. One notable "fudd" was Bill Ruger(founder Sturm Ruger co) who publicly supported provisions of the bill in return for basically exempting the mini 14 from the ban. Some ranges wouldn't allow 'assault rifles", there was a sentiment that as long as they left hunting rifles alone, nobody cared weather they banned ARs. This is where a lot of "sporting purposes" language in law came from, hunters and shooters acting like a Vidkun Quisling to the gun world.

In the 2 decades since, Tactical and defensive shooting has skyrocketed, IDPA, IPSC, 3gun the rise of concealed carry, and to some degree gamers have promoted technologically advanced firearms. Now just about everyone is on board, hunters are taking game with AR based platforms, people want the capacity modern designs allow, and you have the industry backing the movement. Now, when someone in the gun/hunting/shooting world tries to revive the "fudd" sentiment, there is usually a public backlash, and in many times something redeeming comes from it, this helps keep public opinion positive, and keeps gun control laws away. Jim Zumbo, a well known hunting writer wrote an article about AR's having no place in the woods, a huge backlash and an invitation to the Ted Nugent ranch for some "education" changed him into an advocate for us. The Great American outdoor show in Harrisburg is the largest hunting expo in the region, after Newtown, the promoters banned modern rifles at the show, and hunters boycotted their own show in solidarity, it was cancelled, now run by the NRA it's a showcase for not only the hunting industry, but tactical, and defensive manufacturers too.

"Fudds" used to be prevalent, we changed that, and now outside of the occasional idiot, or someone that "knows a guy" like that, most gun owners understand our rights, and stand shoulder to shoulder with all gun owners to preserve our rights. Now the broad and derogatory term largely just POs decent people, it's more divisive than a description, however like "assault rifle" people know instantly what it describes, I would rather call them Quislings, seems more appropriate to me.

 

[Mr H]

I just want the term erased from 2A conversation, period... but I know it won't happen, because some folks are just as stubborn about deriding people, as those people are about the rights fight.

So, we cringe a little when we hear it, refocus the conversation, and move on.

 

[occbrian]

It came about as a derogatory term for hunters(yup Elmer Fudd) and sport shooters that basically supported banning other types of firearms, especially around the 94 AWB bill. One notable "fudd" was Bill Ruger(founder Sturm Ruger co) who publicly supported provisions of the bill in return for basically exempting the mini 14 from the ban. Some ranges wouldn't allow 'assault rifles", there was a sentiment that as long as they left hunting rifles alone, nobody cared weather they banned ARs. This is where a lot of "sporting purposes" language in law came from, hunters and shooters acting like a Vidkun Quisling to the gun world.

In the 2 decades since, Tactical and defensive shooting has skyrocketed, IDPA, IPSC, 3gun the rise of concealed carry, and to some degree gamers have promoted technologically advanced firearms. Now just about everyone is on board, hunters are taking game with AR based platforms, people want the capacity modern designs allow, and you have the industry backing the movement. Now, when someone in the gun/hunting/shooting world tries to revive the "fudd" sentiment, there is usually a public backlash, and in many times something redeeming comes from it, this helps keep public opinion positive, and keeps gun control laws away. Jim Zumbo, a well known hunting writer wrote an article about AR's having no place in the woods, a huge backlash and an invitation to the Ted Nugent ranch for some "education" changed him into an advocate for us. The Great American outdoor show in Harrisburg is the largest hunting expo in the region, after Newtown, the promoters banned modern rifles at the show, and hunters boycotted their own show in solidarity, it was cancelled, now run by the NRA it's a showcase for not only the hunting industry, but tactical, and defensive manufacturers too.

"Fudds" used to be prevalent, we changed that, and now outside of the occasional idiot, or someone that "knows a guy" like that, most gun owners understand our rights, and stand shoulder to shoulder with all gun owners to preserve our rights. Now the broad and derogatory term largely just POs decent people, it's more divisive than a description, however like "assault rifle" people know instantly what it describes, I would rather call them Quislings, seems more appropriate to me.

GREAT F'ING POST

 

[clandestine]

Work a gun counter for 3 months and them come back and tell me fudds don't exist or are in large #s. Hell a good 20% of the customers that come into the shop I worked at didn't even know about the FSA after it was passed.

 

[44man]

It came about as a derogatory term for hunters(yup Elmer Fudd) and sport shooters that basically supported banning other types of firearms, especially around the 94 AWB bill. One notable "fudd" was Bill Ruger(founder Sturm Ruger co) who publicly supported provisions of the bill in return for basically exempting the mini 14 from the ban. Some ranges wouldn't allow 'assault rifles", there was a sentiment that as long as they left hunting rifles alone, nobody cared weather they banned ARs. This is where a lot of "sporting purposes" language in law came from, hunters and shooters acting like a Vidkun Quisling to the gun world.

In the 2 decades since, Tactical and defensive shooting has skyrocketed, IDPA, IPSC, 3gun the rise of concealed carry, and to some degree gamers have promoted technologically advanced firearms. Now just about everyone is on board, hunters are taking game with AR based platforms, people want the capacity modern designs allow, and you have the industry backing the movement. Now, when someone in the gun/hunting/shooting world tries to revive the "fudd" sentiment, there is usually a public backlash, and in many times something redeeming comes from it, this helps keep public opinion positive, and keeps gun control laws away. Jim Zumbo, a well known hunting writer wrote an article about AR's having no place in the woods, a huge backlash and an invitation to the Ted Nugent ranch for some "education" changed him into an advocate for us. The Great American outdoor show in Harrisburg is the largest hunting expo in the region, after Newtown, the promoters banned modern rifles at the show, and hunters boycotted their own show in solidarity, it was cancelled, now run by the NRA it's a showcase for not only the hunting industry, but tactical, and defensive manufacturers too.

"Fudds" used to be prevalent, we changed that, and now outside of the occasional idiot, or someone that "knows a guy" like that, most gun owners understand our rights, and stand shoulder to shoulder with all gun owners to preserve our rights. Now the broad and derogatory term largely just POs decent people, it's more divisive than a description, however like "assault rifle" people know instantly what it describes, I would rather call them Quislings, seems more appropriate to me.

great post. the highlighted part is what i believe to be the biggest problem here. many here just cant understand that by dividing those who we could get to help and vote with us wont help the cause. alienating people wont get votes. calling people names wont get votes. if i remember correctly there are over 100,000 hunting licenses sold in md and only 20,000 members here. why would we try and alienate 5x or more voters from the cause , especially in an election year? it kinda makes me want to give up trying and crawl back in the hole i came out of and say f it and keep my stuff in a safe place and give up caring about other peoples rights. but then i would be a fudd, now wouldnt i?

edit: there were 88,000 hunters in md according to the 2011 census.

 

[sxs]

One of the nicest ranges around with great hours and we want to sue them so we can use a pistol grip stock? I don't get all the anger and the "I'll never go there again attitude." I don't go there to hang out and make friends. I go there to shoot clay pigeons. It's easy: every once in a while you buy a book of tickets. When you get there, go inside and ask them which ranges are open. Then you go shoot and give the kid your ticket when he comes by. Easy peasy - the birds fly out and you shoot them. When you're done shooting you go home and repeat as often as desired. Smokey I know you're ticked because their dumb rules ruined a day out with a friend. My son has been rejected for shooting his 870 youth model when he's gone there by himself (he likes the challenge of shooting his little 20 guage). If he's with me though, they don't say anything. It is what it is. It's a really nice range with good hours. Eat the fish and spit out the bones.

I had the problem with my son shooting his Mossy 500 Bantam there (at the time he was 13 or so...too young to be there by himself). Too short (The Bantam has a 22" youth field barrel). However, after making somewhat of an issue about it, they still let us go out and shoot. That's better than my own club Stoney Creek. They wouldn't let him shoot at all as they require 26" (noise they say). Howevwer, even there no one has taken issue with my little 20 ga 25" sxs. They don't exactly stand there with a tape measure.

 

[fabsroman]

Gotcha

The following is not directed at you or anyone in particular:
PG T&S is a nice facility especially for beginners. It is pretty cool that you can show up with a drivers license (for rentals) and some cash and have at it.

They offer classes to show you the ropes or you can head to the wobble trap station on the weekends and Donny will help you out.

In my experience, the staff for the most part has been fine but some of them are a little standoffish until you demonstrate you know the drill.

The rudeness exhibited to smokey is definitely not cool. I personally don't have an issue with the rules but I would not leave the field if someone showed up with a pistol grip shotgun. If everyone is being safe, it's a non-issue for me. The biggest safety issue I have experienced is with new shooters and muzzle sweep when off the field.

The biggest safety issue I have seen with new shooters is muzzle sweep with a loaded shotgun while on the trap field as they turned around to ask the puller a question. With that automated system, that is no longer a problem though.

Always "fun" to see somebody blast the trap house while they are holding low and getting ready to call for the bird. Just waiting to see somebody shoot a skeet house on a late shot.

 

[fabsroman]

Three thoughts:

I've been to PG T&S many times and Morgan can be a true PITA. OTOH, Mark seems like a much more reasonable person. The OP may have been referred to Morgan as the "manager", i.e. one step up from the counter help on that particular day. It may be worth having a discussion with Mark, as the real manager, about the issues at hand. And if SNI could participate, to demonstrate why the rules seems arbitrary and make it more difficult for people to participate in the shooting sports, that could clinch the deal for us.

Given the location in PG County, it is almost a miracle that the facility continues to exist as a public park. And, I say that as someone who grew up in the County...and inside the Beltway, only about 200 yds from the DC line. We should tread very carefully with anything which could endanger its continued existence, including threats of lawsuits.



Bigfoot -- Thanks for the history. It's interesting to me that the club sits on land that was carved out from Goddard Space Flight Center, and before that was all part of the Dept of Agriculture Beltsville Ag Research Center farms. I remember back in the late 60s, there was a PG Trap and Skeet Club, which was located where Rt 704 MLK, formerly known as Palmer Pkwy, intersected with Rt 50. At that time, you could be driving on Rt 50 and see folks shooting trap. My memory is that they were facing away from 704 and actually shooting towards the highway! Do you know what happened to that club? Now there's an office complex on that plot of land, but I think about the old days every time I drive by. I so wanted to stop and get a chance to shoot!

JoeR

Glad to hear Mark is still there. He is a really good guy. Might be enough just to shoot an e-mail over to him with a link to this thread and let him see what is going on here. I was planning on shooting there next week or weekend, so I could try to talk to him about this too. Can't say it would change the policy, but I'd give it a try.

 

[fabsroman]

Three thoughts:

I've been to PG T&S many times and Morgan can be a true PITA. OTOH, Mark seems like a much more reasonable person. The OP may have been referred to Morgan as the "manager", i.e. one step up from the counter help on that particular day. It may be worth having a discussion with Mark, as the real manager, about the issues at hand. And if SNI could participate, to demonstrate why the rules seems arbitrary and make it more difficult for people to participate in the shooting sports, that could clinch the deal for us.

Given the location in PG County, it is almost a miracle that the facility continues to exist as a public park. And, I say that as someone who grew up in the County...and inside the Beltway, only about 200 yds from the DC line. We should tread very carefully with anything which could endanger its continued existence, including threats of lawsuits.



Bigfoot -- Thanks for the history. It's interesting to me that the club sits on land that was carved out from Goddard Space Flight Center, and before that was all part of the Dept of Agriculture Beltsville Ag Research Center farms. I remember back in the late 60s, there was a PG Trap and Skeet Club, which was located where Rt 704 MLK, formerly known as Palmer Pkwy, intersected with Rt 50. At that time, you could be driving on Rt 50 and see folks shooting trap. My memory is that they were facing away from 704 and actually shooting towards the highway! Do you know what happened to that club? Now there's an office complex on that plot of land, but I think about the old days every time I drive by. I so wanted to stop and get a chance to shoot!

JoeR

When I was born, my parents were living in Camp Springs and that was where my dad shot all his clays. It is the first range I can remember. We moved to Kensington when I was 3, but my dad continued to shoot there until shooting became too expensive/time consuming with 5 kids to feed. It probably made more financial sense to sell the land and take the profits. Same thing happened to a range in Darnestown that I shot my first clays at when I was really, really young. Housing moved in and the range was shut down. Believe it was later sold to a developer.

 

[fabsroman]

Guys, lets not forget that PG Trap & Skeet also does a lot for the shooting sports. For instance, they have had events where they closed off the sporting clays course so Congress men and women could shoot and learn about shooting. Doubt Feinstein was out there shooting, but it does promote the sports in a positive light. Granted, having a rule where pistol grip stocks are not allowed does not help those of us on the self defense side of the ball, or people like me that really enjoy shooting clays, wingshooting/hunting, big game hunting, rifle shooting, and still want to be prepared should something happen where I am the potential victim.

I'm stuck in the middle on this one and trying to figure out how I want to approach this. Still going to talk to Mark about it, but just debating how hard I want to push.

 

[fabsroman]

Work a gun counter for 3 months and them come back and tell me fudds don't exist or are in large #s. Hell a good 20% of the customers that come into the shop I worked at didn't even know about the FSA after it was passed.

And you think it is only "FUDDs" that don't know about the FSA? I am willing to bet that a ton of people don't know about the FSA. My brother in-law, an attorney himself with the 3rd largest law firm in the world, did not have the time to read through everything in the FSA and I have pretty much been his point man on it. My brothers, who barely hunt, hardly know what is contained in the FSA.

Willing to bet that if you worked in a field that didn't have you behind a gun counter, you wouldn't know the ins and outs of the FSA either.

Trust me, it isn't just FUDDs, but the general population, a lot of whom only own a firearm for self defense.

 

[tkd4life]

So I think its pretty easy to just say... I'm not going to give these guys any more of my money ever again. When I was at UMD, I would go there at least once a week and shoot. I understand that they may do great things for the sporting community but I'm sure Cheaper Than Dirt does things too. Neither place will ever get my money again. I know its a free market, and thats the exact right I'm exercising. I'm free not support the business decision they made.

There is no way around it, they are all "pro-second ammendment" as long as it doesn't infringe on the firearms they like to shoot. All those other guns, well to hell with them, they are just evil, it has no "sporting use". I mean come on.

 

[rtse4me]

Really? You guys want to make a big stink about a trivial rule at a range with all the other stupidity going on in this state. You could alienate a group of gun owners who are knowledgeable and have lots of disposable income. PG is a great place for people who have zero experience with firearms and are intimidated by the gun culture. They learn that guns are not this evil thing and actually have a good time. You should use this place to show what the shooting sports is all about instead of fighting them. The biggest liberal POS Paris Gledening and his son used to shoot there once in a while.

For those who are suggesting a pistol grip is needed for some type of handicap need to look up John Kruger. Also, the people at PG bend over backwards for handicapped people more so than any group even the pretty girls don’t get the same attention.

I don't agree with the pistol grip rule but I would give PG a pass on this one. Let it lay.

 

[fabsroman]

I feel the barrel length rule is a good one, the pistol grip rule less so. Neither opinion disqualifies me from "the cause".

The barrel length issue probably has a decent amount to do with muzzle blast/noise. Maybe I'm wrong, but shorter barrels and ported barrels tend to be loud as crap. Of course, I shoot ported barrel o/u shotguns, but at least all my 391s are not ported. Might have to send them out for some work. lol

 

[fabsroman]

One of the nicest ranges around with great hours and we want to sue them so we can use a pistol grip stock? I don't get all the anger and the "I'll never go there again attitude." I don't go there to hang out and make friends. I go there to shoot clay pigeons. It's easy: every once in a while you buy a book of tickets. When you get there, go inside and ask them which ranges are open. Then you go shoot and give the kid your ticket when he comes by. Easy peasy - the birds fly out and you shoot them. When you're done shooting you go home and repeat as often as desired. Smokey I know you're ticked because their dumb rules ruined a day out with a friend. My son has been rejected for shooting his 870 youth model when he's gone there by himself (he likes the challenge of shooting his little 20 guage). If he's with me though, they don't say anything. It is what it is. It's a really nice range with good hours. Eat the fish and spit out the bones.

Both my sisters use my 391 youth 20 gauge when we go to PGT&S or to Pintail. If I knew how to upload video to YouTube, I would post a video of the two of them shooting it at PGT&S about a decade ago. Never even knew it was a problem to use a youth gun. What is the issue with youth sized shotguns? Is it that the barrel length is too short?

 

[fabsroman]

I know Mr H let me borrow his Mossberg Youth 500 Bantam 20 gauge when we went there.... The post did not elaborate on the issue.

Am just getting started on shotguns, so I am pretty ignorant about the technical aspects of them, but if there's a problem at PGTS with a sole shooter (without a parent) using a youth model 20 gauge shotgun there, that's a discriminatory policy for us permanently youth sized people.

Reminds me of Hap Baker, lol. The target ropes on the pistol range are too high for me. I asked the RSO for a stool and he said it was a safety hazard, so I asked him what other shorties do... His response "most people as short as you come with parents" . So I bring Mopar to change my targets and give him cookies.

Yeah, I think that comment would have had me drafting a letter to Hap Baker and the county. Nothing like making it tough for short people to shoot. Maybe they should require everybody to squeeze through a certain size hole to get out there to the ropes to make sure that over weight people cannot shoot too.

Would it be possible for them to lower the target ropes, or is that a safety issue too? Might be that they are between a rock and a hard spot. Then again, it might just be that they are oblivious to some people being short.

 

[Bountied]

Smokey someone in the classifieds is selling the Magpul stock for the 870 with adjustable LOP and cheek pieces. Problem solved, or you could just buy your wife her own gun!

 

[fabsroman]

Yep and it was so much fun, i wanna go more! Thanks for the intro.

Am looking at options for changing the barrel or going with an entirely new shotgun, but definitely prefer pistol grips. 20 gauge is a given.

Curious if the youth model problem the other person was highlighting was a barrel length issue as well.

You don't have to use a 20 gauge. They make light loads for the 12 gauge and you can get somebody to cut down a stock on a 12 gauge so it fits you right. If you really want to get into clay shooting, there are all kinds of things that can be done to reduce recoil, along with adding weight to the gun with a tube set (assuming o/u), which would allow you to shoot 20 gauge, 28 gauge, and .410 through the same gun. Depends how much you get into clays shooting, but my sister at 5' 5" and 110 pounds can shoot a 12 gauge with light loads without a problem.

Think the only way I am going to get into handgun and rifle shooting is if I do 3 gun with my brothers. Punching paper is just too boring for me, but I do it every once in a while just to make sure the guns are sighted correctly and I can still squeeze the trigger properly.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I looked up Mr Kruger, found a garage owner in Utah , an Arnold movie character , and a photographer in South Austrailia. Can you give us another clue ?

 

[fabsroman]

Also a bad idea. The guy in the green cart is looking for safety violations. Imagine if you paid, then were kicked out after 20 min. You would be PISSSED. I believe the rules are posted in the clubhouse tho, and it does specify no pistol grips.

And again, if they were rude they shouldn't have been (retail behind a counter can suck tho) but they have been getting a lot of sh!tbags lately, they have to be cautious. PG county officials, all other things equal, would probably like them gone.

the 5 figure gun assholes may be the last line of defense for the place in the political world.

The ones that own 5 figure guns are also the ones that are probably our last line of defense in the self defense/2nd Amendment world too. Money talks and BS walks. The wine shipping laws were changed in Maryland recently because of large political contributions, and I know one person in particular who made a large contribution to garner a vote in favor of the change. Politics suck, but most politicians only understand money and what is good for them. Sadly, I don't own a 5 figure gun yet, but I do have one on the list of wants. Hoping I don't get put in the A-hole category if I ever buy it and break it out to shoot clays.