PGT&S Fuddism

[ShallNotInfringe]

You CAN shoot 20 gauge there. The previous poster mentioned "youth model" so maybe is was a length issue?

I took a class with their head instructor, Rhys Arthur and we shot both 12 and 20 gauge shotguns. I see people shooting .410s as well.

I know Mr H let me borrow his Mossberg Youth 500 Bantam 20 gauge when we went there.... The post did not elaborate on the issue.

Am just getting started on shotguns, so I am pretty ignorant about the technical aspects of them, but if there's a problem at PGTS with a sole shooter (without a parent) using a youth model 20 gauge shotgun there, that's a discriminatory policy for us permanently youth sized people.

Reminds me of Hap Baker, lol. The target ropes on the pistol range are too high for me. I asked the RSO for a stool and he said it was a safety hazard, so I asked him what other shorties do... His response "most people as short as you come with parents" . So I bring Mopar to change my targets and give him cookies.

 

[JoeRinMD]

Three thoughts:

I've been to PG T&S many times and Morgan can be a true PITA. OTOH, Mark seems like a much more reasonable person. The OP may have been referred to Morgan as the "manager", i.e. one step up from the counter help on that particular day. It may be worth having a discussion with Mark, as the real manager, about the issues at hand. And if SNI could participate, to demonstrate why the rules seems arbitrary and make it more difficult for people to participate in the shooting sports, that could clinch the deal for us.

Given the location in PG County, it is almost a miracle that the facility continues to exist as a public park. And, I say that as someone who grew up in the County...and inside the Beltway, only about 200 yds from the DC line. We should tread very carefully with anything which could endanger its continued existence, including threats of lawsuits.

For the background ;

The land was/ is owned by PG Parks. In the mid '70s , Winchester built everything ( except the SC , at the time nobody in US had heard of it, much less shot it) . In exchange , they had 20yr lease to operate it , at the end of which all the factilties became property of PG Co. After the end of Winchester's lease , PG opted to enter a new agreement for Berretta to operate. At the end of that agreement , they decided to operate themselves directly.

Bigfoot -- Thanks for the history. It's interesting to me that the club sits on land that was carved out from Goddard Space Flight Center, and before that was all part of the Dept of Agriculture Beltsville Ag Research Center farms. I remember back in the late 60s, there was a PG Trap and Skeet Club, which was located where Rt 704 MLK, formerly known as Palmer Pkwy, intersected with Rt 50. At that time, you could be driving on Rt 50 and see folks shooting trap. My memory is that they were facing away from 704 and actually shooting towards the highway! Do you know what happened to that club? Now there's an office complex on that plot of land, but I think about the old days every time I drive by. I so wanted to stop and get a chance to shoot!

JoeR

 

[alucard0822]

It's actually fairly simple, this isn't a private buisness or club, but a public facility run by the county. The management is making up and enforcing rules on the spot due to a bias seemingly based in elitism. It is an instance where a government entity is promoting a bias, and implementing a ban on legal firearms based on cosmetic and ergonomic features, and that has everything to do with us. It is nothing like a private golf course enforcing a dress code, it's essentially a county park run by county employees telling a large population of the gun world to go F-ourselves by making up rules and prohibitions on the spot. It is also unlike their own 23" barrel rule, where shorter barrels increase noise dramatically, it's a published and practical consideration with a lot of shooters in close proximity. Nobody is looking to shut the place down, nobody is looking to shoot up signs and damage the place, all it requires is for their management to simply stick to their own rules instead of pushing unwritten rules in the form of a BS elitist ban that could propagate negative attention in a battle MD's gun owners have been fighting tooth and nail over.

It can go a few different ways, they keep it up, we do nothing, and who knows what is next, no synthetic stocks, gun inspections, recording serial #s, keeping an ammo log for police, no affordable steel head shells, at minimum gun owners are either discouraged to try clay games, or encouraged to thumb their nose at new technology and affordable guns. They could get a LOT of people calling to complain, speaking to the "real manager" Mark, who seems to be described as more reasonable, along with a few letters from known shooters and industry folk, and quietly change their ways as pressured. THey could receive a public backlash, apologize and change their ways as a result, with or without a change in management like the Harrisburg outdoor show boycott, Zumbo or Metcalf's editorials. They could be on the receiving end of an ADA setup and lawsuit, or political pressure that could have larger implications, which could endanger the facility entirely.

 

[aquaman]

Yeah, lets threaten to shut down one of, if not the, largest shotgun range in the state because we dislike one of their rules. An example of cutting off ones nose to spite their face.

No room for FUDDs anymore. You are either down with the cause or out. ya digg?

 

[Mr H]

They did that to my cousin and I about 2 years ago. Fudds they are and I cant stand them. I jave dealt with my share of them as a Smith.

Perhaps we need to arrange MDS day and all show up with post gripped stocks.

I'll swap a long barrel on my side-folder and come along, no problem.

The easy answer is to leave the gun in the car, get your tickets/cards, THEN get the gun and head to the range of choice and make them have to refund your money.

I like the facility, and I'd hate to see it become a pissing contest over something this silly.

 

[linkstate]

I know Mr H let me borrow his Mossberg Youth 500 Bantam 20 gauge when we went there.... The post did not elaborate on the issue.

Am just getting started on shotguns, so I am pretty ignorant about the technical aspects of them, but if there's a problem at PGTS with a sole shooter (without a parent) using a youth model 20 gauge shotgun there, that's a discriminatory policy for us permanently youth sized people.

Reminds me of Hap Baker, lol. The target ropes on the pistol range are too high for me. I asked the RSO for a stool and he said it was a safety hazard, so I asked him what other shorties do... His response "most people as short as you come with parents" . So I bring Mopar to change my targets and give him cookies.

Gotcha

The following is not directed at you or anyone in particular:
PG T&S is a nice facility especially for beginners. It is pretty cool that you can show up with a drivers license (for rentals) and some cash and have at it.

They offer classes to show you the ropes or you can head to the wobble trap station on the weekends and Donny will help you out.

In my experience, the staff for the most part has been fine but some of them are a little standoffish until you demonstrate you know the drill.

The rudeness exhibited to smokey is definitely not cool. I personally don't have an issue with the rules but I would not leave the field if someone showed up with a pistol grip shotgun. If everyone is being safe, it's a non-issue for me. The biggest safety issue I have experienced is with new shooters and muzzle sweep when off the field.

 

[Mr H]

One of the nicest ranges around with great hours and we want to sue them so we can use a pistol grip stock? I don't get all the anger and the "I'll never go there again attitude." I don't go there to hang out and make friends. I go there to shoot clay pigeons. It's easy: every once in a while you buy a book of tickets. When you get there, go inside and ask them which ranges are open. Then you go shoot and give the kid your ticket when he comes by. Easy peasy - the birds fly out and you shoot them. When you're done shooting you go home and repeat as often as desired. Smokey I know you're ticked because their dumb rules ruined a day out with a friend.

Well said, though I'd still love to see their faces is we all showed up. "I thought 'PG' meant 'pistol grip'..."

My son has been rejected for shooting his 870 youth model when he's gone there by himself (he likes the challenge of shooting his little 20 guage). If he's with me though, they don't say anything. It is what it is. It's a really nice range with good hours. Eat the fish and spit out the bones.

The Mossberg Bantam 20ga is exactly in limits, and it's what I take for anyone in need of a smaller gun.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

You had a 20ga when we went. The only issue there was the barrel length, so I handed you the one you ended up using.

Yep and it was so much fun, i wanna go more! Thanks for the intro.

Am looking at options for changing the barrel or going with an entirely new shotgun, but definitely prefer pistol grips. 20 gauge is a given.

Curious if the youth model problem the other person was highlighting was a barrel length issue as well.

 

[STeveZ]

No room for FUDDs anymore. You are either down with the cause or out. ya digg?

I feel the barrel length rule is a good one, the pistol grip rule less so. Neither opinion disqualifies me from "the cause".

 

[Bountied]

Simple solution, follow their rules or shoot somewhere else. I can't shoot steel case ammo at a bunch of indoor ranges it doesn't mean I boycott them or try to convince them that it's ok by me so it should be ok by them. The man on the phone should have been more polite, but he probably didn't appreciate being arguned with over a rule they may or may not have set in stone. If I really wanted to shoot I would have jsut rented one of their nice semi-autos and enjoyed my day...

 

[STeveZ]

Simple solution, follow their rules or shoot somewhere else. I can't shoot steel case ammo at a bunch of indoor ranges it doesn't mean I boycott them or try to convince them that it's ok by me so it should be ok by them. The man on the phone should have been more polite, but he probably didn't appreciate being arguned with over a rule they may or may not have set in stone. If I really wanted to shoot I would have jsut rented one of their nice semi-autos and enjoyed my day...

Why do you hate the 2nd Amendment so much?

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Simple solution, follow their rules or shoot somewhere else. I can't shoot steel case ammo at a bunch of indoor ranges it doesn't mean I boycott them or try to convince them that it's ok by me so it should be ok by them. The man on the phone should have been more polite, but he probably didn't appreciate being arguned with over a rule they may or may not have set in stone. If I really wanted to shoot I would have jsut rented one of their nice semi-autos and enjoyed my day...

It's not a business. It's a public facility, that belongs to the people. Quite different from a private business in being able to set policy. It's about time we got on our high horse and got a positive change for a public facility, instead of having a bunch of liberals coming in and making women and girls share the bathrooms with potential sexual predators in the name of "fairness". I call unfairness in the pistol grip ban at PGTS

Seems like a trip to the county council meeting or whatever forum is used to create the range policy, which should be an open meeting, might be in order and make a difference.

 

[alucard0822]

Simple solution, follow their rules or shoot somewhere else. I can't shoot steel case ammo at a bunch of indoor ranges it doesn't mean I boycott them or try to convince them that it's ok by me so it should be ok by them. The man on the phone should have been more polite, but he probably didn't appreciate being arguned with over a rule they may or may not have set in stone. If I really wanted to shoot I would have jsut rented one of their nice semi-autos and enjoyed my day...

If it was a private business you have no connection with, then sure, however what if it was a club you were a member of? My private club takes suggestions from members constantly, and after we consider them, some are made official, some aren't, afterall it is "our" club, and we all have a say in making the rules, and if a member is an ass to others, or makes up non-official rules that have no bearing on safety, they would probably get a talking to at minimum, probably suspended or kicked out if it became a pattern. PG trap and skeet is essentially a public park run by the county, in much the same way it is "ours", and it our right and responsibility to make sure it is a positive reflection on "us".

As a side note, last time I was down there the racks of nice Rental Berettas were gone, they were buisy, but out of the 5 or 6 they had available, all were beat up which is to be expected, but almost none functioned properly, one had pretty much no stock drop, someone must have put the midget shim in, and no normal human could get a good picture with it. One O/U wouldn't fire after a second pull, another would fire with the safety on(sets when action is opened)an auto had a broken mag spring and wouldn't feed, another had a loose stock, and a few were missing beads. Ended up having to pass my AL391 and ironically the very same pistol gripped 870 Smokey posted in the OP in order for our group to shoot.

 

[44man]

no wonder i like shooting at the farm away from people so much. i thought it was just because i was a miserable bastard that didnt like people, now i am sure of it.

 

[smokey]

Simple solution, follow their rules or shoot somewhere else. I can't shoot steel case ammo at a bunch of indoor ranges it doesn't mean I boycott them or try to convince them that it's ok by me so it should be ok by them. The man on the phone should have been more polite, but he probably didn't appreciate being arguned with over a rule they may or may not have set in stone. If I really wanted to shoot I would have jsut rented one of their nice semi-autos and enjoyed my day...

Also a simple solution...
I disagree with a policy they have against a pistol gripped shotguns. I contact the manager to have a conversation with him to see if the policy was communicated accurately by the staff and to try to explain why I disagree with the policy. I am treated poorly by management. Next I am free to share my experience on a public forum where people may agree with me or disagree with me. Hopefully pressure is generated on the business and they rethink their policy. If they do, then I may go back there. If they don't then I likely won't. So, I'd be taking the "shoot somewhere else" option and informing others of my experience so they could make a similar judgment call.

Like I said, barrel length and other safety rules, yeahh....I can get that. I still haven't had anyone give a valid reason why a pistol-gripped collapseable stock is a bad thing. For me and many others, it gives the user some advantages other stocks don't and better enables them to safely shoot. The reasons the range gave me for not allowing them reinforce negative sterotypes that blame an object for behavior...the exact same logic that was just used to pass the AWB in md.

And rather than rent a gun, giving them more money....we had a blast hitting 18 holes of golf....
we almost got dinner too when some geese decided to land right in front of my buddy tony when he was getting ready to take a swing.

 

[44man]

i saw a guy on tv shooting clay pigeons with a 22, maybe they should do away with that pesky shotgun only rule too.....that way rifle shooters wont think they are fudds

 

[BradMacc82]

I'm presuming this is the cousin of ESAD.

Pretty much.

 

[soco]

It's actually fairly simple, this isn't a private buisness or club, but a public facility run by the county. The management is making up and enforcing rules on the spot due to a bias seemingly based in elitism. It is an instance where a government entity is promoting a bias, and implementing a ban on legal firearms based on cosmetic and ergonomic features, and that has everything to do with us. It is nothing like a private golf course enforcing a dress code, it's essentially a county park run by county employees telling a large population of the gun world to go F-ourselves by making up rules and prohibitions on the spot. It is also unlike their own 23" barrel rule, where shorter barrels increase noise dramatically, it's a published and practical consideration with a lot of shooters in close proximity. Nobody is looking to shut the place down, nobody is looking to shoot up signs and damage the place, all it requires is for their management to simply stick to their own rules instead of pushing unwritten rules in the form of a BS elitist ban that could propagate negative attention in a battle MD's gun owners have been fighting tooth and nail over.

It can go a few different ways, they keep it up, we do nothing, and who knows what is next, no synthetic stocks, gun inspections, recording serial #s, keeping an ammo log for police, no affordable steel head shells, at minimum gun owners are either discouraged to try clay games, or encouraged to thumb their nose at new technology and affordable guns. They could get a LOT of people calling to complain, speaking to the "real manager" Mark, who seems to be described as more reasonable, along with a few letters from known shooters and industry folk, and quietly change their ways as pressured. THey could receive a public backlash, apologize and change their ways as a result, with or without a change in management like the Harrisburg outdoor show boycott, Zumbo or Metcalf's editorials. They could be on the receiving end of an ADA setup and lawsuit, or political pressure that could have larger implications, which could endanger the facility entirely.

there is a lot of hyperbole here. I can say this: I like that facility. I think its a wonderful place, and I am very happy that it is close to my home. I swear, if someone SUES it out of existence, I will find their house and do a slip and fall.

For gods sake we're all on the same side of the fence whats with the damned bickering? I agree, phone call all you want if it bugs you. Please, expressing your opinion (RESPECTFULLY) is the point of living in america. But lawsuits? For shame.

 

[DC-W]

Simple solution, follow their rules or shoot somewhere else. I can't shoot steel case ammo at a bunch of indoor ranges it doesn't mean I boycott them or try to convince them that it's ok by me so it should be ok by them. The man on the phone should have been more polite, but he probably didn't appreciate being arguned with over a rule they may or may not have set in stone. If I really wanted to shoot I would have jsut rented one of their nice semi-autos and enjoyed my day...

Steel-core ammo has the potential to burn down a facility. It can spark and is more prone to ricochet, hence why many places ban it. That's a logical and reasonable limitation.

Such a reason is no different than a golf course banning spiked shoes because they can tear up and damage their (expensive to maintain) greens.

Pistol-grips are for comfort and sometimes cosmetics. There's no functional difference in the way the firearm goes bang.
Illogical and unreasonable limitation it is (yoda voice).

 

[smokey]

i saw a guy on tv shooting clay pigeons with a 22, maybe they should do away with that pesky shotgun only rule too.....that way rifle shooters wont think they are fudds

Yes, cause that is the same thing happening here...