MSP the Enemy?

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  • trailman

    Active Member
    Nov 15, 2011
    632
    Frederick
    I take a differing view in that they are. MSP is the enforcement arm of the state regardless of Officers personal opinion and until there is a revolution on the force they are not on our side. I know many rank and file deputies here in the county through work and church. All good conservative God fearing pro-2A individuals. And each and every one of them will kick down your door in the middle of the night and probably shoot your dog. And they are the good ones. I read an article earlier this year titled something like the “Police are not your friend”. Basically it details how grandpa in his walker gets blown away. It’s stylized but unfortunately true if you look up all the reports all over the country. Christ the EPA even has SWAT teams now.

    We seem to forget the images of Boston with thousands of police officers kitted out like the 10th Mountain Division dragging citizens out of their houses looking for the bomber. All good conservative God fearing pro-2A individuals who would have blown away the first resident that answered their door with a shotgun because they were protecting their residences against a mad bomber on the loose.

    And this doesn’t count the gun ho militaristic ones that have the ego behind the badge. There are plenty of them on MDShooters. Every time I see a police abuse thing I think of a thread I read on here a while back about a guy that called the cops about a vacant neighborhood house and stayed armed waiting for them to show up. To say he got castigated by an “Operator” would be an understatement. The Operator in no uncertain terms stated he would blow away anything, he even remotely thought was a threat. What bothered me more was the pile on from other members that knew the operator and yet I’ll bet that the Operator was a good conservative God fearing pro-2A individual.

    People are what people do and it is what it is. At the line Officers follow orders, that’s their job. And until they turn in the badge as a matter of principle they are not on my side or anyone else’s in this gun debate. They WILL be on the team kicking down your door. When they do it doesn’t really matter that five out of ten of them men in the black masks support your right to carry.

    This is a situation that I think Police have devolved to everywhere, its sad.
     

    Ranchero50

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 15, 2012
    5,411
    Hagerstown MD
    So then I would expect the FOP / Unions to stand up for the line officers vs. managements orders if (or when) illegal search and seizures happen.
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    So then I would expect the FOP / Unions to stand up for the line officers vs. managements orders if (or when) illegal search and seizures happen.

    Yes, but that's going to be tough to argue because management generally doesn't order illegal searches. If management tells me to go see if Citizen X, who has regulated weapons, has any unregistered weapons then anything that happens at the door is on me.

    I think your making a jump this thread isn't ready for because what I'm assuming you think is an illegal search could be considered a legal search due to these new laws.........keep in mind I'm solely speaking of contact and warrant searches. I'm not talking about random "I'm coming inside" searches because that's already illegal.

    And since I'm making my above statement on assumptions I'm going to ask you clarify and expound upon illegal searches please.
     

    Ranchero50

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 15, 2012
    5,411
    Hagerstown MD
    I'm not good enough at legalese to expand my thoughts.

    For clarity's sake, using the two threads about MSP visits for non regulated (per the law) long guns that the MSP decided to make regulated as examples of 'illegal' searches. What if next month the MSP creates squads to do FFL audits for anything that looks evil and start to go visiting in the early AM.

    I'm not trying to be alarmist or really jump too much but I am wondering if the union would step up and make some noise about it? The union I worked for as an Telco equipment installer would make noise if the management asked us to do stuff that was forbidden per the contract. It seems the troopers contract is to uphold the laws of the state (among other things).

    So if the management is knowingly sending troopers out to 'verify' unregulated firearms that they already know are unregulated doesn't that become an unlawful search or at least a search without a legal reason (sorry, forgot the correct wording).

    Thoughts?
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    I'm not good enough at legalese to expand my thoughts.

    For clarity's sake, using the two threads about MSP visits for non regulated (per the law) long guns that the MSP decided to make regulated as examples of 'illegal' searches. What if next month the MSP creates squads to do FFL audits for anything that looks evil and start to go visiting in the early AM.

    I'm not trying to be alarmist or really jump too much but I am wondering if the union would step up and make some noise about it? The union I worked for as an Telco equipment installer would make noise if the management asked us to do stuff that was forbidden per the contract. It seems the troopers contract is to uphold the laws of the state (among other things).

    So if the management is knowingly sending troopers out to 'verify' unregulated firearms that they already know are unregulated doesn't that become an unlawful search or at least a search without a legal reason (sorry, forgot the correct wording).

    Thoughts?

    While appalling neither of those cases involved searches. The MSP responded to the location, were allowed in for a chat, asked to see the weapons, and it went down from there.

    Both of those homeowners had every right to say "kick rocks officer". As a police officer, as a citizen, as a homeless leprechaun, I can walk up to any front door in America and ask whatever question I want.

    If I felt the need I could legally walk down the street pick any house I want to and when the homeowner politely greets me I can ask, "Sir I was wondering how big your wife's **** are!" As a cop I'm still a citizen and take away the **** comment and add "how many guns do you own" still perfectly legal.

    BTW I understand the **** comment is over the top but I'm using it as an example for reinforcement, people generally don't forget things that are bizarre and over the top.
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    While appalling neither of those cases involved searches. The MSP responded to the location, were allowed in for a chat, asked to see the weapons, and it went down from there.

    Both of those homeowners had every right to say "kick rocks officer". As a police officer, as a citizen, as a homeless leprechaun, I can walk up to any front door in America and ask whatever question I want.

    If I felt the need I could legally walk down the street pick any house I want to and when the homeowner politely greets me I can ask, "Sir I was wondering how big your wife's **** are!" As a cop I'm still a citizen and take away the **** comment and add "how many guns do you own" still perfectly legal.

    BTW I understand the **** comment is over the top but I'm using it as an example for reinforcement, people generally don't forget things that are bizarre and over the top.
    Yikes...ok...this is going out of control...

    Thanks for clarifying a few things about your unions / professional organizations, I was, for a lack of a better term, a bit ignorant upon what support they offer you. Certainly I realize the guys on the street are between a severe rock and a hard place, and I was not trying to get into hypotheticals about searches and seizures.

    My main point was and still is, that the guys in a patrol car, ones who contact citizens, ones whom understands the problems behind violence and the fact that it is not the tool, but the person, should not be cowed and disenfranchised from their 1A right to speak (even if in a non-agency capacity). Their oath of office and their integrity should guide them in helping to maintain our representative democracy. I'm not asking them to break laws, nor should they refuse orders (unless they are completely outside the scope of the law and their oath) , and certainly they should use their own brain when they contact a decent, law abiding citizen that gets captured by this drag net of crap the state capital has laid out.



    Now...please folks...not another cop bashing thread...that's not what I was getting at.
     

    hvymax

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Apr 19, 2010
    14,011
    Dentsville District 28
    While appalling neither of those cases involved searches. The MSP responded to the location, were allowed in for a chat, asked to see the weapons, and it went down from there.

    Both of those homeowners had every right to say "kick rocks officer". As a police officer, as a citizen, as a homeless leprechaun, I can walk up to any front door in America and ask whatever question I want.

    If I felt the need I could legally walk down the street pick any house I want to and when the homeowner politely greets me I can ask, "Sir I was wondering how big your wife's **** are!" As a cop I'm still a citizen and take away the **** comment and add "how many guns do you own" still perfectly legal.

    BTW I understand the **** comment is over the top but I'm using it as an example for reinforcement, people generally don't forget things that are bizarre and over the top.

    Generally citizens and leprechauns are not armed agents of authority. As we have seen in too many cases if you question their authority rightly or wrongly you risk your life and everything you have.
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,603
    SoMD / West PA
    The MSP or any police are not your enemy.

    "However,"

    They are not your friend, either. So do not expect them to do you any favors.

    They have a crappy task of enforcing the law. It's a damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario.
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    Yikes...ok...this is going out of control...

    Thanks for clarifying a few things about your unions / professional organizations, I was, for a lack of a better term, a bit ignorant upon what support they offer you. Certainly I realize the guys on the street are between a severe rock and a hard place, and I was not trying to get into hypotheticals about searches and seizures.

    My main point was and still is, that the guys in a patrol car, ones who contact citizens, ones whom understands the problems behind violence and the fact that it is not the tool, but the person, should not be cowed and disenfranchised from their 1A right to speak (even if in a non-agency capacity). Their oath of office and their integrity should guide them in helping to maintain our representative democracy. I'm not asking them to break laws, nor should they refuse orders (unless they are completely outside the scope of the law and their oath) , and certainly they should use their own brain when they contact a decent, law abiding citizen that gets captured by this drag net of crap the state capital has laid out.



    Now...please folks...not another cop bashing thread...that's not what I was getting at.

    No sir I 100% understood your message and in no way, shape, or form think that it is not valid. Since you brought up the unions I just wanted you to understand why anything in relation to these laws and enlisting the help of the FOP or any other police union would be worthless.
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    No sir I 100% understood your message and in no way, shape, or form think that it is not valid. Since you brought up the unions I just wanted you to understand why anything in relation to these laws and enlisting the help of the FOP or any other police union would be worthless.
    Perfect...good. Thanks.
     

    Rack&Roll

    R.I.P
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    22,304
    Bunkerville, MD
    I'm sure the off-duty, out-of-uniform MD State Troopers are cool guys and gals when they are sitting next to you on the couch during a Ravens game discussing 2A.

    But the on-duty culture for the MSP going back almost 50 years now is that any firearm that ever leaves your gun safe is a "crisis" for them. Just ask anyone who has ever worried about stopping for dinner on the way home from the range--and about what jeopardy they might be in during a routine traffic stop.
     

    fred2207

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Mar 14, 2013
    3,179
    PG
    It's not the troopers who are on the road that we have to be concerned about. It's the ones who sit in the offices and hob knob with county/state officials that are the problem.

    After watching the hearing proceedings yesterday, I could not agree more...:sad20::sad20:
     

    JettaRed

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 13, 2013
    1,138
    Middletown
    To add some balance (or another perspective) to some of the arguments here, consider that the US military, who is sworn to defend the US Constitution, does not have the free-speech protection of the 1st Amendment. If you've ever been in the military, you learn that very early--like during basic.

    I'm not sure the same holds true for state employees, but it may. Any troopers here who wish to clarify?
     

    helmetmike

    Active Member
    Sep 30, 2010
    141
    So. MD 29B
    After watching the hearing proceedings yesterday, I could not agree more...:sad20::sad20:

    As I was exiting the room yesterday after testifying about how inept the MSP are with administering the current regs and paperwork, one of the plain clothes troopers shook my hand and gave me a smile. That act of support made my day. As for the actions of the committee, they should suffer the hatred reserved for cowards and traitors. Support our friends :thumbsup: and piss on our enemies :tongue01:.
     

    highwayheat

    highwayheat
    Jun 13, 2012
    588
    Ceciltucky
    I'd honestly be more afraid of the MDTA police. Over the years i've come to the conclusion that those guys would ticket/arrest the pope if they had the oppurtunity. They are akin to the Gestapo.

    It is simply amazing how ignorant people really can be. Apparently someone has been stopped by the MDTA Police and cited. People should just man up and accept they committed a violation rather then make excuses. Every department has personel that are a bad apple or just an a$$. You shouldn't just make a blind assumption about a whole department based on contact with a few less than favorable officers. An extremely high percentage of the MDTA Police are and will remain pro 2A regardless of what garbage comes about. Feel free to PM me if any further education is needed.
     
    Last edited:

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    This discussion is premature. The police are just police. We must judge each action on it merits.

    I can tell you msp rank and file is stymathetic to our cause..

    I suggest not antagonising them. Most likely there will be very little aggressive policing.
    Turn your attention to the ones we know oppose us. That's is today fight.
     

    trailman

    Active Member
    Nov 15, 2011
    632
    Frederick
    As I was exiting the room yesterday after testifying about how inept the MSP are with administering the current regs and paperwork, one of the plain clothes troopers shook my hand and gave me a smile. That act of support made my day. As for the actions of the committee, they should suffer the hatred reserved for cowards and traitors. Support our friends :thumbsup: and piss on our enemies :tongue01:.

    And there is a perfect illustration of my earlier point. I'd bet a box of fractured Prune that he was also one of the officers shutting down the livestreaming of "closed" hearings this spring. They are all on our side, until....
     

    trailman

    Active Member
    Nov 15, 2011
    632
    Frederick
    It is simply amazing how ignorant people really can be. Apparently someone has ben stopped by the MDTA Police and cited. People should just man up and accept they committed a violation rather then make excuses. Every department has personel that are a bad apple or just an a$$. You shouldn't just make a blind assumption about a whole department based on contact with a few less than favorable officers. An extremely high percentage of the MDTA Police are and will remain pro 2A regardless of what garbage comes about. Feel free to PM me if any further education is needed.

    Why not? The government judges us on people like the kid in Newtown and the Navy Yard. Plus the police are the single most visible presence of the government in our lives.
     

    River Mud

    Active Member
    Mar 19, 2013
    102
    It is simply amazing how ignorant people really can be. Apparently someone has ben stopped by the MDTA Police and cited. People should just man up and accept they committed a violation rather then make excuses. Every department has personel that are a bad apple or just an a$$. You shouldn't just make a blind assumption about a whole department based on contact with a few less than favorable officers. An extremely high percentage of the MDTA Police are and will remain pro 2A regardless of what garbage comes about. Feel free to PM me if any further education is needed.

    Every workplace has bad apples. But in how many workplaces do the bad apple's job descriptions include the ability/requirement to "temporarily suspend" the consitutional rights of citizens, enforce that "temporary suspension of rights" with deadly firepower, and then be provided state-funded legal defense for what is basically a workplace shooting?

    Having a "few bad apples" is a uniquely dangerous problem in a workplace environment like law enforcement, just like it would be in a room full of heart surgeons. It's even more of an intolerable problem for law enforcement agencies in states like Maryland where the legislature and the citizenry honestly believe that their first and last line of defense against "all bad things in life" is in fact the police force. The public trust is important.
     

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