Inside Intel on MoCo 21-22

[Biggfoot44]

If I’m seen printing, I’m not showing shit to any cop unless they can articulate a crime I committed.

In a society where bearing a firearm is legal, evidence that a firearm is being carried is not, on its face, illegal. More is needed to affect a stop.

If they can’t ask for ID for exercising the 1A, 4A or 5A, they can’t for the 2A.

Terry v OHIO is a deep dive topic in itself .


Barest outline of oversimplification :

Only Reasonable Suspicion is required for brief pat down of outer clothing for weapons .

A brief flash of gun or associated accessories ( holster , spare ammo ) on the person is RS that firearm is also .

Even if Carry alone is presumptively legal in general in the state, if within a No No Zone , carry is presumptively Illegal except for on duty LE and on duty armed security .

Yeah , could hypothetically be plainclothes LE or Security , but observing LE would have RS to determine if exceptions are met .

 

[Biggfoot44]

The operative question is, is that society inclusive of Montgomery County, or of the state of Maryland, for that matter?

If not overturned first , this will be an evolving area of case law .

Prediction is the starting point of the state's position is that any carry in a Sensitive Place is presumptively NOT Legal , pending establishment of one of the narrow exceptions .

 

[teratos]

Terry v OHIO is a deep dive topic in itself .


Barest outline of oversimplification :

Only Reasonable Suspicion is required for brief pat down of outer clothing for weapons .

A brief flash of gun or associated accessories ( holster , spare ammo ) on the person is RS that firearm is also .

Even if Carry alone is presumptively legal in general in the state, if within a No No Zone , carry is presumptively Illegal except for on duty LE and on duty armed security .

Yeah , could hypothetically be plainclothes LE or Security , but observing LE would have RS to determine if exceptions are met .

If in a no-go zone they can articulate a crime.

Otherwise, pound sand.

 

[rickyp]

Just because printing or incidental exposure aren't themselves illegal doesn't mean it's not sufficient for reasonable suspicion for a stop and frisk if you're in a "sensitive place." They need to articulate reasonable suspicion that a crime has been or is about to be committed by you. From their "X years of experience and training," seeing the printing of a concealed gun in a sensitive location is easily articulable reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime save for you being able to show that you belong to one of the limited exceptions.

A simple thing we can do is all get a p320 or p365 holster and a matching grip frame and wear that as if it’s a conceled pistol. Since it isn’t a pistol and just a fashion statement they can’t do anything If they start to do a stop and search the victims need to sue the department
i wonder how many people will get searched in a new sensitive place because their cellphone is printing and under a shirt could look like a pistol.

 

[JohnnyE]

Fundamental Constitutional Right.

Fvck them.

This right here.

Hundreds of thousands of Marylanders are driving around Maryland's highways and byways this very moment, the vast majority of whom bear valid driver's licenses. Driving about on our roads is not, in and of itself, a reason for a traffic stop to check license status. Police need to see you blow a red light or make an illegal lane change to initiate a traffic stop, and initiate license check.

Carrying a firearm per 2A has higher status.The presence of a gun, in and of itself, has many lawful explanations. Gun-bearers need not prove their innocence. The officer/deputy/trooper must have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that the carrying of the firearm by the person here in front of them is committing an unlawful act. What are they doing that, on its face, is unlawful? Bearing arms alone is not enough. If the officer knows that is a prohibited person then fine. Absent that, the officer cannot check them out. Yes, it's a high burden. Tough shit. Enforcement in the face of rights can be ugly, but it's better than than the alternative.

 

[Biggfoot44]

100's of thousands of motorists are driving around on public roads , presumably legally in absense of PC otherwise .

Driving a vehicle on the active area of an Airport is presumptively prohibited , in the absence of specific clearences and permissions .

 

[teratos]

100's of thousands of motorists are driving around on public roads , presumably legally in absense of PC otherwise .

Driving a vehicle on the active area of an Airport is presumptively prohibited , in the absence of specific clearences and permissions .

Nobody is suggesting that driving/carrying in a prohibited area is protected. Stop it.

Bottom line: When a protected activity is presumptively lawful, the police cannot demand you prove it is. Period.

 

[JohnnyE]

Nobody is suggesting that driving/carrying in a prohibited area is protected. Stop it.

Bottom line: When a protected activity is presumptively lawful, the police cannot demand you prove it is. Period.

Yes. Trooper, this is not an ID check, ARTICULATE THE CRIME or be gone.

 

[teratos]

RECORD INTERACTIONS WITH THE POLICE

 

[SigNerd]

Nobody is suggesting that driving/carrying in a prohibited area is protected. Stop it.

Bottom line: When a protected activity is presumptively lawful, the police cannot demand you prove it is. Period.

No one is arguing that printing while walking along a sidewalk is enough for RS of a crime (other than in most of MoCo right now) or for police to initiate contact. We're saying that if you're in a designated "sensitive place" where exceptions to carry prohibitions are extremely narrow, then the outline of a gun is enough for police to justify initiating contact and frisking you for weapons (at which point you can offer whatever exemption you might have to the general prohibition on carrying in that area).

Also, none of us are saying that it's right and I'm certainly not telling you what to do, but it is what it is.

 

[Blacksmith101]

Everyone should get a lighter and carry it with you in a handy holster:

Amazon product ASIN B09QRBD42X

 

[teratos]

No one is arguing that printing while walking along a sidewalk is enough for RS of a crime (other than in most of MoCo right now) or for police to initiate contact. We're saying that if you're in a designated "sensitive place" where exceptions to carry prohibitions are extremely narrow, then the outline of a gun is enough for police to justify initiating contact and frisking you for weapons (at which point you can offer whatever exemption you might have to the general prohibition on carrying in that area).

Also, none of us are saying that it's right and I'm certainly not telling you what to do, but it is what it is.

There have been several reports of MSP asking to run serial numbers to “make sure” guns aren’t stolen during traffic stops. Be ready. If you want to believe that the police in MD are suddenly 2A friendly, do so at your peril.

 

[SigNerd]

There have been several reports of MSP asking to run serial numbers to “make sure” guns aren’t stolen during traffic stops. Be ready. If you want to believe that the police in MD are suddenly 2A friendly, do so at your peril.

Lol, I most certainly do not believe that MD police are 2A friendly. Even nationwide, it doesn't matter that the majority say they support gun ownership, (A) it only matters what the cop you're interacting with thinks and (B) if they get orders to violate your rights they absolutely will regardless of their views. One can occasionally have a friend who happens to be a cop, but cops aren't your friends. Shut up and lawyer up, always.

 

[LuckyShot]

I've known this since after thanksgiving. I workout at the same gym as 3 off duty cops and have had the luxury to be open about this topic.

Thank you for reinforcing it to the non believers.

 

[Bob A]

I've known this since after thanksgiving. I workout at the same gym as 3 off duty cops and have had the luxury to be open about this topic.

Thank you for reinforcing it to the non believers.

It's not clear to me what you may have gathered from your acquaintances, nor whom you're thanking.

I'd appreciate it if you care to clarify.

 

[LuckyShot]

It's not clear to me what you may have gathered from your acquaintances, nor whom you're thanking.

I'd appreciate it if you care to clarify.

thanking the OP.

What i've gathered has just been info regarding enforcement of the law since the time it passed (thanksgiving).
While everyone was worried about being arrested(nothing wrong with that) i was advised that moco and rockville city had no direction regarding enforcement at that time and no idea what to charge people with. I relayed any info i gathered from my casual encounters onto the forums and typically got pushback(nothing wrong with that).

As time went on and 0 charges had been filed after clear as day law breakers i felt more and more confident i was getting accurate info from the off duty guys. Needless to say the 5.11 belts got worn during these 10 months

 

[Bob A]

thanking the OP.

What i've gathered has just been info regarding enforcement of the law since the time it passed (thanksgiving).
While everyone was worried about being arrested(nothing wrong with that) i was advised that moco and rockville city had no direction regarding enforcement at that time and no idea what to charge people with. I relayed any info i gathered from my casual encounters onto the forums and typically got pushback(nothing wrong with that).

As time went on and 0 charges had been filed after clear as day law breakers i felt more and more confident i was getting accurate info from the off duty guys. Needless to say the 5.11 belts got worn during these 10 months

Thank you very much for your reply.

I hope that as we move into the October Surprise era, you'll provide such intel as may be available to you about any changes in policy/enforcement at the street level.

 

[Mark75H]

I believe they are still arguing that no one has standing. They do not want to arrest and charge someone and give them standing and lose that leg of their argument in court.