Gun Owner Unwelcomed in Maryland

[daNattyFatty]

Could you please define "commercial vehicle" as it pertains to this subject?

Holy mother of god was this a pain! Finally found the definition of a commercial motor vehicle, in all places......the driver's license article. F U Maryland!

Anyway, here it is from TA 16-803:

(c) Commercial motor vehicle (CMV). --

(1) "Commercial motor vehicle (CMV)" means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used to transport passengers or property, if the motor vehicle:

(i) Has a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 or more pounds inclusive of a towed unit with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 10,000 pounds;

(ii) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 or more pounds;

(iii) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(iv) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of materials found to be hazardous for the purposes of the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act and which requires the motor vehicle to be placarded under hazardous materials regulations (49 C.F.R. Part 172, Subpart F).

(2) "Commercial motor vehicle (CMV)" does not include a vehicle that is:

(i) 1. Controlled and operated by a farmer;

2. Used to transport agricultural products, farm machinery, or farm supplies to or from a farm;

3. Not used in the operations of a common or contract motor carrier; and

4. Used within 150 miles of the person's farm;

(ii) An emergency vehicle:

1. Equipped with audible and visual signals; and

2. Operated by a member of or a person in the employ of a volunteer or paid fire or rescue organization;

(iii) A vehicle owned or operated by the United States Department of Defense if it is controlled and operated by:

1. Any active duty military personnel;

2. Any member of the military reserves or National Guard on active duty, including personnel on full-time National Guard duty and personnel on part-time training; or

3. Any National Guard military technician; or

(iv) A motor vehicle designed and constructed primarily to provide temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, or travel use.

Here's a link that may be helpful as well. I would recommend starting with the COMAR search.

http://www.mdot.maryland.gov/Office of Maryland Motor Carrier Program/Commercial Vehicle Laws

 

[PJDiesel]

Does anyone here drive a diesel pickup truck? Did you know when you bought it that you signed a paper giving the state permission to stop your vehicle and confirm that you are operating said vehicle with taxed fuel.

Nope.

Since 2001 I've had exactly 8 diesel pick ups, including my current one. Never once signed a paper stating such. I have stories directly from actual State Troopers that have told other LEO's to go get fvcked when they asked about dipping the tank in their personal vehicles. One of them works at the commercial truck division up here in Perryville. The MDA (as an exapmple) has absolutely NO police power to search my truck, there is no reasonable suspicion I am running anything other than "green" (road taxed) fuel.

Yes, I am willing to be the test case on this one. It's gonna be a LONG wait on the side of the road when I get pulled and they want to dip me. Not happening without a warrant and likely a towtruck.

 

[rgatijnet]

Holy mother of god was this a pain! Finally found the definition of a commercial motor vehicle, in all places......the driver's license article. F U Maryland!

Anyway, here it is from TA 16-803:

(c) Commercial motor vehicle (CMV). --


(ii) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 or more pounds;


(iv) A motor vehicle designed and constructed primarily to provide temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, or travel use.

Here's a link that may be helpful as well. I would recommend starting with the COMAR search.

http://www.mdot.maryland.gov/Office of Maryland Motor Carrier Program/Commercial Vehicle Laws

Thanks for that info. By weight, a lot of RV's are considered commercial vehicles but MD does give an exclusion form the commercial designation if it is designed to provide living accommodations. So I guess this puts an RV in the same category as an automobile when on the road.
Normal police action dictates that WITHOUT A SEARCH WARRANT, a police officer may search the area within the reach of the driver of a vehicle. That is where a problem exists with a large RV. To search the area within my reach, an officer must enter the ONLY door in the middle of the RV on the passenger side, walk through the coach up to the driver's seat, to perform his inspection. To complicate things, to unlock that door I have to leave the driver's seat, and thus leave the view of the officer. I also have a 100+ pound dog that may take exception to a stranger coming in to our home. As opposed to a commercial vehicle, which has running boards and a driver's side door, most RV's are too high to look in to, have no running boards for an officer to stand on, and do not have a door on the driver's side. I would understand any officer's concern about not being able to see me or my passengers during a stop, but it is what it is. I will obviously obey what an officer requests, but I can also see where a normal traffic stop could escalate quickly, especially if the officer knew I had a CCW and must rely on my word that I do not have a weapon in my possession.

 

[daNattyFatty]

From TA 25-111, here's the applicable sections concerning inspections by certain personnel:

(4) "Police officer" means:

(i) Any uniformed law enforcement officer who is certified or under the direction of a law enforcement officer who is certified by the Department of State Police to perform an inspection authorized under this section;

(ii) Any civilian employee of the Department of State Police assigned to enforce any rule or regulation adopted under this section, but only while acting under written authorization of the Secretary of State Police;

(iii) Any civilian employee of the Maryland Transportation Authority Police who is:

1. Acting under the immediate direction and control of a uniformed police officer;

2. Acting under the written authorization of the Secretary of State Police; and

3. Certified by the Department of State Police to perform an inspection authorized under this section; or

(iv) Any civilian employee of a local government who is:

1. Acting under the immediate direction and control of a uniformed police officer;

2. Acting under the written authorization of the Secretary of State Police; and

3. Certified by the Department of State Police to perform an inspection authorized under this section.

(b) Authority to stop and inspect vehicle. --

(1) Upon direction by a police officer or by an electronic signal to vehicles equipped with a CVISN transponder, the driver of any vehicle that is subject to any rule or regulation adopted under this section shall stop and submit to an inspection:

(i) All applicable driver records, including driver's license, driver hours of service record and certificate of physical examination;

(ii) All load manifests, including bills of lading or other shipping documents; and

(iii) All cargo and cargo areas.

(2) A police officer who is certified by the Department of State Police to perform an inspection authorized under this section, a Public Service Commission inspector, or a hazardous materials inspector may conduct a safety inspection of the vehicle that is subject to a rule or regulation adopted under this section or § 22-409 of this article.

(c) Consent to inspection. -- The operation of a vehicle on any highway in this State constitutes the consent of the driver and the owner of the vehicle to the inspection provided for in this section.

 

[Safetech]

Well that blows that,"If it's lettered it's a commercial vehicle" arvument right out the window. Don't it!

 

[Mulchman]

I'm checking on that parttime. I know the comptrollers office (accompanied by a CVED Trooper) regularly stops at the livestock auction here in Hagerstown and dips everybody's fuel tank. If its diesel, it gets dipped. 10,000 lbs GVW pickups are definitely subject to certain DOT regs even if they are private. Annual DOT maintenance program/inspection. I'll let you know what I find out.

 

[Mulchman]

This is the definition of commercial vehicle from Maryland DOT website:

The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations have defined a commercial motor vehicle (CMV) as noted below. Maryland has adopted this definition for commercial vehicles that operate only within state boundaries (intrastate).
CMV definition:
Commercial motor vehicle means any vehicle operated in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—
(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 10,001 pounds or more, whichever is greater; or
(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or
(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
(4) Is used in transporting hazardous materials in a quantity requiring placarding.

Basic explanation: if it weighs over 10000 lbs and is used to make money or transports passengers (see above). ie. A guy that mowers grass and pulls his trailer with lawn mower behind his pickup truck (which is assumed to weigh more than 10000 lbs in combination, until confirmed by scales not to be) is supposed to have a DOT number and the driver needs a DOT physical card.

 

[Mulchman]

My initial post was addressing the probable cause issue to the original stop. I am only saying that there are all kinds of reasons out there that you can get stopped for that don't necessarily fall into the category of a blatant traffic violation. The average driver doesn't have any idea of all the things the cops can legally stop you for. If I wanted to stop a car, all I had to do was follow it for a little while and it would commit some minor traffic violation that would give probable cause for the stop. Even if my only intention was to issue a warning for the infraction, it got me a chance to talk to the driver and look for other things. I know there are a bunch of cop haters out there that think all cops are bad, but for the most part, they just wanna make a living and go home to their families at the end of the day like everyone else. I know there are cops with bad attitudes and seem to have a point to make with everyone they meet, but they are the exception.

 

[Parttime]

Nope.

Since 2001 I've had exactly 8 diesel pick ups, including my current one. Never once signed a paper stating such. I have stories directly from actual State Troopers that have told other LEO's to go get fvcked when they asked about dipping the tank in their personal vehicles. One of them works at the commercial truck division up here in Perryville. The MDA (as an exapmple) has absolutely NO police power to search my truck, there is no reasonable suspicion I am running anything other than "green" (road taxed) fuel.

Yes, I am willing to be the test case on this one. It's gonna be a LONG wait on the side of the road when I get pulled and they want to dip me. Not happening without a warrant and likely a towtruck.

The Maryland State Comptroller Office has investigators. They will attempt to bully a private citizen, driving a diesel pickup, into letting them test a fuel tank for red dyed fuel (No road tax). They have no police powers to exercise probable cause.

In the past, I have been served a summons, for failure to permit an inspection. and had it dismissed by a States Attorney, because of the commercial wording of the law and the 4th amendment issue.

 

[PJDiesel]

If I wanted to stop a car, all I had to do was follow it for a little while and it would commit some minor traffic violation that would give probable cause for the stop. Even if my only intention was to issue a warning for the infraction, it got me a chance to talk to the driver and look for other things.

Kinda shady, I'm sure it's very very common (and fully legal), but, lets admit it's a dick move to follow someone around until they "commit some minor traffic violation"

The Maryland State Comptroller Office has investigators. They will attempt to bully a private citizen, driving a diesel pickup, into letting them test a fuel tank for red dyed fuel (No road tax). They have no police powers to exercise probable cause.

In the past, I have been served a summons, for failure to permit an inspection. and had it dismissed by a States Attorney, because of the commercial wording of the law and the 4th amendment issue.

I'm really really beginning to hate this ******** of a State. With all the ******** waste that goes on THIS is what they are using resources for, pestering people about fuel.

 

[Mulchman]

I've been called worse. Lol

Nope. Not about fuel at all, it's tax evasion.

 

[Eviljagtech]

My initial post was addressing the probable cause issue to the original stop. I am only saying that there are all kinds of reasons out there that you can get stopped for that don't necessarily fall into the category of a blatant traffic violation. The average driver doesn't have any idea of all the things the cops can legally stop you for. If I wanted to stop a car, all I had to do was follow it for a little while and it would commit some minor traffic violation that would give probable cause for the stop. Even if my only intention was to issue a warning for the infraction, it got me a chance to talk to the driver and look for other things. I know there are a bunch of cop haters out there that think all cops are bad, but for the most part, they just wanna make a living and go home to their families at the end of the day like everyone else. I know there are cops with bad attitudes and seem to have a point to make with everyone they meet, but they are the exception.

You do understand it is for these very reasons that many people don't trust the police anymore and question many of the things they do right or wrong. I don't hate police, but I don't trust them either, you can't tell which ones have the power trip or not just by looking at them. Also laws have become so damn complex because of the retards in the capital that everyday you are braking some law, and at anytime could be in be trouble. I have lost counter of how many times I have seen police on their cell phone while driving behind a car, who gives him/her a ticket. This is were the issues crop up. I know some people take it way to far on the hating side but you need to understand that the 1% that are bad, do stand out a lot and are to often defended as "just doing their job".

 

[rgatijnet]

I've been called worse. Lol

Nope. Not about fuel at all, it's tax evasion.

Getting back to travelers in an RV....since you were a LEO, what would you say is the procedure for stopping an RV in MD. Let's assume that you have a legitimate reason such as speeding(not likely, but let's go with it). I pull over and you come up to the driver's window, which is well above your line of sight. You ask about a CCW and I say yes I have one, but I am not carrying. Keep in mind that you cannot see what I am doing with my hands. You ask for my license and registration, which I have to get from my wallet sitting on the center console. You cannot see me or my passenger during this time.
Would you want to inspect the area within my reach as the driver, which I understand can be done without a search warrant? What is the procedure for this search? The only entrance door is on the other side of the RV, 20+ feet away and it has to be unlocked. I also have a 100+ pound dog.
What would you do and what would you consider most LEO's would do? What would be expected from me, other than to not shoot you?

 

[DaemonAssassin]

Getting back to travelers in an RV....since you were a LEO, what would you say is the procedure for stopping an RV in MD. Let's assume that you have a legitimate reason such as speeding(not likely, but let's go with it). I pull over and you come up to the driver's window, which is well above your line of sight. You ask about a CCW and I say yes I have one, but I am not carrying. Keep in mind that you cannot see what I am doing with my hands. You ask for my license and registration, which I have to get from my wallet sitting on the center console. You cannot see me or my passenger during this time.
Would you want to inspect the area within my reach as the driver, which I understand can be done without a search warrant? What is the procedure for this search? The only entrance door is on the other side of the RV, 20+ feet away and it has to be unlocked. I also have a 100+ pound dog.
What would you do and what would you consider most LEO's would do? What would be expected from me, other than to not shoot you?

Good communication is key. Every officer is different when it comes to how they handle a traffic stop. You need to ask them how they want to proceed every time, if those are your concerns.

 

[Mulchman]

Lets get this right from the beginning. This is what I would do in that situation.

Are you driving the RV from Breaking Bad? Only joking. I would not have as much concern for a grandpa driving an R V as I would from a banger driving a blacked out SUV. So my level of anxiety would be lower. Same difference though, I can't see what you are doing inside so I have two choices. Let you go and not attempt a stop or treat it as a high risk traffic stop, in which case I would order the driver out of the vehicle from a safe distance. Then it's just me and you on the shoulder of the road.

You are assuming that I know you have a CCW. When I retired eighteen months ago, we had no indication of that before we pulled a car over. Assume I can think on my own, I would assume that a person with a CCW has been thoroughly checked out by the state and would be no risk to me personally, as opposed to the guy who is a criminal and carries a gun for less than honorable reasons. Ie: Robbing liquor stores, protecting himself from other gang members, shooting his way out of trouble, etc etc etc.

As for asking about weapons and contraband, we were taught to ask about that AFTER the stop. Reason being, you are less likely to give consent to search after you are told you are free to go than while I have your license and registration.

There is really no right or wrong way to approach your RV, I would say its based on the level of maturity, seniority, and insecurity of the PO making the stop. I can see a kid being more aggressive than a old expierienced Trooper, and that aggressiveness can be mistaken for a cop just being a dick.

I personally think everyone should be allowed to carry if they want. It brings balance to society. Some people just aren't as strong as others and a weapon equals the playing field. My grandma has a right to defend herself from some thug that wants to beat her and take her pocket book. I don't think it's fair that she can't.

 

[Mulchman]

It's sad that people can't trust the police anymore. I used to look up to the police when I was a kid. I still trust the police, I just don't trust the politicians.

 

[PJDiesel]

I still trust the police. Vast majority of the leos I have contact with are good guys, good people with good intentions.

 

[Safetech]

I can see a kid being more aggressive than a old expierienced Trooper, and that aggressiveness can be mistaken for a cop just being a dick.

IMHO, any cop who is "aggressive" to a citizen who is not being aggressive to them, IS being a d***.

 

[rgatijnet]

Lets get this right from the beginning. This is what I would do in that situation.

Are you driving the RV from Breaking Bad? Only joking. I would not have as much concern for a grandpa driving an R V as I would from a banger driving a blacked out SUV. So my level of anxiety would be lower. Same difference though, I can't see what you are doing inside so I have two choices. Let you go and not attempt a stop or treat it as a high risk traffic stop, in which case I would order the driver out of the vehicle from a safe distance. Then it's just me and you on the shoulder of the road.

You are assuming that I know you have a CCW. When I retired eighteen months ago, we had no indication of that before we pulled a car over. Assume I can think on my own, I would assume that a person with a CCW has been thoroughly checked out by the state and would be no risk to me personally, as opposed to the guy who is a criminal and carries a gun for less than honorable reasons. Ie: Robbing liquor stores, protecting himself from other gang members, shooting his way out of trouble, etc etc etc.

As for asking about weapons and contraband, we were taught to ask about that AFTER the stop. Reason being, you are less likely to give consent to search after you are told you are free to go than while I have your license and registration.

There is really no right or wrong way to approach your RV, I would say its based on the level of maturity, seniority, and insecurity of the PO making the stop. I can see a kid being more aggressive than a old expierienced Trooper, and that aggressiveness can be mistaken for a cop just being a dick.

I personally think everyone should be allowed to carry if they want. It brings balance to society. Some people just aren't as strong as others and a weapon equals the playing field. My grandma has a right to defend herself from some thug that wants to beat her and take her pocket book. I don't think it's fair that she can't.

Thank you. I especially like the "let me go and not attempt a stop" approach.

 

[MigraineMan]

At the HJC testimony session on 04 March, there was a MTA trooper who offered oral testimony. I believe Delegate Conaway asked him to expand on the scenario, and the MTA trooper described a traffic stop (seventy-sumthin' in a fifty-five) that had conflicting information regarding a Florida resident's firearm. The trooper then added that the on-site officer detected the smell of marijuana, and called for a canine unit. He claimed that they discovered a small amount of marijuana in the vehicle. Delegate Conaway then asked if the MTA police detained the driver for possession. The trooper indicated that they did not.

This is the first I've heard of the MJ accusations. This seems to be in conflict with the MTA Police issuing an apology and starting an internal investigation. I also have issue with the MTA Police discovering MJ, and then saying "oh, it's just a small amount ... go on your way."

My Scooby-sense is tingling ....