Gun Owner Unwelcomed in Maryland

[kenpo333]

I'm not a lwyer and am not giving legal advice.

License, registration, and proof of insurance is all you are requred to show.

When officer approaches, hands on the wheel where he can see them, or sticking out the window. When searching for paperwork, move slowly and tell him what you are doing.

If asked about guns, simply don't respond or say "nothing illegal" or something along those lines.

Under no case do they have the right to enter the vehicle or search any external compartments without a warrent or probable cause unless you expressly give them permission.

If asked to leave the vehicle, ask if you are under arrest or being detained. If he answers in the affirmative, ask what the charges are and say you are invooking the 5th amendment and want a lawyer. If he won't answer contine asking if you are under arrest or if you are free to leave.

I don't see anything wrong with this approach but I believe that some stater\s require you to state that you have a hand gun and ccw. You can go to www.atlantictacticalfirearmstraining.com and they have a link so you can review each states firearms and conceal carry laws before you go in.

 

[rgatijnet]

I do understand about notifying an officer if you have a CCW AND are carrying. I have done that in other states and never experienced any problem at all. I think that is just a basic common sense approach and respect for the LEO to let them know.
The problem is in states like Maryland where I am not legal to conceal carry. Why should I acknowledge anything about my firearms if I am not carrying any concealed weapons?
In New York State, I am allowed to carry weapons THROUGH the state, but I am not allowed to stop, unless it is an emergency or for fuel. I CANNOT legally spend the night anywhere in the state or my weapons are illegal, even if they are in the basement of the motor home.
Maryland seems to be leaning the way of NY and I have not found anything that gives an answer as to whether or not I am legally allowed to spend any extended period of time in Maryland, while my weapons are in the motor home.

 

[rgatijnet]

If any out of state LEO contacts the State of Florida, where I have my CCW, all he has to do is ASK and the State of Florida will confirm that the person does or does not have a CCW.
With today's technology, I do not know how long it would take for an officer to find out from FL if a driver has a CCW. Maybe only a minute or so.
The problem is that in this case, having a CCW does not mean that you have a weapon. In my motor home, having a CCW does not mean that my weapon is in the vehicle within my reach, since I would have it stored unloaded, in the basement compartment, accessible only from the outside.
Because I have a CCW, they could make the assumption that I have a weapon, SOMEWHERE, but do I legally have to acknowledge that I do if I am supposedly only stopped for a traffic infraction?

 

[Arel11]

Mr H.
I can verify that when stopped - somehow they do know if you have a CCW (for Maryland at least). Here's my story:

I received my MD CCW in June 2013. I got pulled over for speeding (13 over) in Harford County, in September by a MSP trooper. He exited his vehicle and drew his gun and ordered me out of my truck, ordered me to place my hands on the hood and demanded to know where my gun was and if I had it with me that day. My reply was that I did not have it with me. He then open the door of my truck simultaneously asking me if I had it in my truck and did a quick search of the drivers compartment. I responded that it was not in my truck either and that I was not consenting to a search and that he was violating my 4th amendment right. I repeated that the sidearm was not with me or in my vehicle. He then calmed down, holstered his sidearm, asked me for my driver's license and wrote me a warning for the speed.

I will add that once he hit his lights for me to pull over, I continued another 100 feet to pull in to a parking lot so it was safer for him, because we were on a two lane road with no shoulder, and I told him that once, he calmed down. But I did not continue far enough to make him think I was attempting to evade.

This is 100% false. There is no mobile, accessible database to single out CCW holders in MD. Short of calling the licensing division and asking, it doesn't exist.

 

[Biggfoot44]

While the OP makes reference to the infamous incident , he does raise several RV specific questions.

You have no duty to disclose firearms. There are a bizillion discussions of being ASKed , but Md specifically and nationwide. Educate yourself to the issues , and make your decisions as to best aproach.

If it is long guns in question , you are perfectly legal under Md statute 4-101 , but they must be unloaded per the hunting regulation.

*In some States* , it is adressed by statute that when an RV is parked and being used as a domicile or place of business it is considered a residence / place of business rather than a motor vehicle. Md has no statute on that subject.

It IS a good question , and I look foreward to have one of our Legal Eagle members do a case law search on the status of parked RVs being used as temporary domicle/ place of business.

 

[rgatijnet]

While the OP makes reference to the infamous incident , he does raise several RV specific questions.

You have no duty to disclose firearms. There are a bizillion discussions of being ASKed , but Md specifically and nationwide. Educate yourself to the issues , and make your decisions as to best aproach.

If it is long guns in question , you are perfectly legal under Md statute 4-101 , but they must be unloaded per the hunting regulation.

*In some States* , it is adressed by statute that when an RV is parked and being used as a domicile or place of business it is considered a residence / place of business rather than a motor vehicle. Md has no statute on that subject.

It IS a good question , and I look foreward to have one of our Legal Eagle members do a case law search on the status of parked RVs being used as temporary domicle/ place of business.

Thanks, I do have trouble finding out answers that would pertain to a motor home. In an automobile, and officer can watch you as you grab your wallet and hand him your license. In my motor home, he cannot see my hands. Would he be within his and my rights to ask me to leave the motor home, or would he, or his partner, be within his rights to enter my motor home to check my license and registration?
I usually carry a few semi-automatic pistols as well as an AR15(non-heavy barrel) that would be illegal to own in Maryland. I know that since MD does not recognize my FLA CCW, that I must store my weapons out of my reach and unloaded. I cannot find out if I can spend any extended period of time in MD or has MD gone the way of NY where it is illegal for me to stop.
We travel throughout the USA and I do have the latest Traveler's Guide to Firearms laws, so I am informed as to what states allow my FLA CCW and what states do not, but there is little reference to RV travel and overnight stops. With MD changing laws on a regular basis, and since we do wish to stay in MD from time to time, I would like to find an accurate answer rather than to roll the dice.

 

[MDSailor3768]

I know that I'm still new here, but I just don't understand how TAP could have know about his CCW. Can MSP obtain that info if they've got you pulled over, or are following you down the road? What about local LEO?

Thanks guys, very sorry to hear about this families experience, makes me cringe.

 

[Biggfoot44]

As to a traffic stop per se , it would still rest upon probable cause. The type of vehicle ( any vehicle ) could be included in the totality of the circumstances ( just like in any situation ).

There are a whole bunch of discussions here about at exactly what combinations of facts would invoke Md's 4-203 regarding transporting handguns , and which would involve the Federal FOPA .

As to the AR-15 there are multiple cans of worms. Is it an HBAR in Md's eyes ? Then it is considered a common long gun. Does it have an *Evil Standard wt* bbl , AND you have proof that you owned it on or before 9/30/13 ? Then it is supposed to be grandfathered , and would be considered a common long gun. How will that work for you in real life ?

There is another infamous thread here about a Pa resident who was stopped , and had other legitamite violations , but was also charged with possesing an AK in the trunk. Simply from the timing , it would be highly likely to be a pre-Oct 1 rifle , but he was imeadating charged with possesing Banned rifle. We await to see this play out , and the full facts as regards the Rifle charge.

Sorry we don't have all the black and white answers you need, but this is Md where the laws are poorly written , and frequently conflicting and this is still a new situation , and the police policies and case law are still to new to call.

 

[rgatijnet]

As to a traffic stop per se , it would still rest upon probable cause. The type of vehicle ( any vehicle ) could be included in the totality of the circumstances ( just like in any situation ).

There are a whole bunch of discussions here about at exactly what combinations of facts would invoke Md's 4-203 regarding transporting handguns , and which would involve the Federal FOPA .

As to the AR-15 there are multiple cans of worms. Is it an HBAR in Md's eyes ? Then it is considered a common long gun. Does it have an *Evil Standard wt* bbl , AND you have proof that you owned it on or before 9/30/13 ? Then it is supposed to be grandfathered , and would be considered a common long gun. How will that work for you in real life ?

There is another infamous thread here about a Pa resident who was stopped , and had other legitamite violations , but was also charged with possesing an AK in the trunk. Simply from the timing , it would be highly likely to be a pre-Oct 1 rifle , but he was imeadating charged with possesing Banned rifle. We await to see this play out , and the full facts as regards the Rifle charge.

Sorry we don't have all the black and white answers you need, but this is Md where the laws are poorly written , and frequently conflicting and this is still a new situation , and the police policies and case law are still to new to call.

Thanks, The AR15 was legally purchased in FLA, as were all of my guns. The large magazines might be an issue with my handguns. It is not currently legal to own in Maryland because it is not an HBAR. It was purchased before Oct 2013 in FLA but since I am not a resident or planning on selling it in Maryland is it still illegal to be in the basement of my RV? I cannot find any info about an out of state tourist in Maryland and what they can legally transport. I have taken those same guns to shooting ranges in Maryland in the past with no problems, but I realize things have changed.

 

[highwayheat]

First let me start by saying the article referenced omitted quite a few facts so just don't think all MD LEO's are out to get your gun. In reference to being asked to step from the vehicle there is established case law. Mimms vs Pennsylvania establishes a driver may be ordered from the vehicle during the normal course of a traffic stop. Wilson vs Maryland states the same in reference to passengers. In Maryland an RV is considered a vehicle. I ask everyone if they are traveling with weapons due to the fact I had a legal CCW holders pistol fall out of a glove box during a traffic stop when he went for the registration. He didn't tell me he possessed a CCW before opening glove box. The instant addition of an unknown weapon escalated the situation quickly. In the end the CCW holder was sent on his way with an education about why the events took place like they did. He apologized and was released with his warning. Other people that were asked if they were traveling with weapons for personal protection usually tell me they have it when asked. If they are just an everyday motorist going down the road, then I tell them to just leave it where it is. If I know I have a prohibited person, i.e criminal, then the appropriate action is taken. You are not required to tell a LEO that you have a weapon. However, every CCW I have stopped with the exception of the above told me they were carrying. This includes out of state residents. Is it illegal under MD law to carry concealed with an out of state permit? Yes. Have I arrested a valid out of state CCW holder? No. I prefer to use my discretion. Have I searched a vehicle of a CCW holder? Yes due to the fact that the odor a burnt marijuana was emanating from the passenger compartment. The CCW holder was asked where his gun was before the search for safety reasons. The odor was from a co worker/passengers clothing who smoked before getting picked up that morning. The CCW holder was released on a warning but educated about what happens when an occupant smells like Marijuana. I can not make a promise as to what other LEO's will do in reference to carrying weapons. If you plan to travel through MD with them in the underneath storage then I personally say you are covered under. F.O.P.A

 

[PJDiesel]

"RV" is a motor vehicle as far as the law is concerned in MD. That includes tractor trailer, car, bus, moped, etc. Unless you are pulled into a leased site (daily ground rent / whatever), you'll be subject to MD transport law.

 

[Threeband]

When you say New York says you must pass through the state without unnecessary or overnight stops, you are actually referring to FEDERAL law, the FOPA. Of course, that Federal law is the same here in Maryland.

I would recommend you do not stop in Maryland while transporting under FOPA. Do not volunteer information to a LEO that you are transporting firearms.

I believe there was a court case in California which ruled on whether a tent or RV is a "residence" for purposes of possessing firearms. Not sure of the ruling, think it went "our" way. But that ruling would not be binding in this, the 4th Circuit, although a lawyer could use it in argument, I believe.

Do not get "caught" with guns in Maryland.

(fixed it myself, before someone could post "FIFY"!)

 

[Mulchman]

Does anyone here drive a diesel pickup truck? Did you know when you bought it that you signed a paper giving the state permission to stop your vehicle and confirm that you are operating said vehicle with taxed fuel. Did you know that if you operate a commercial vehicle you can be stopped and inspected without PC? Just two examples of how you can be stopped in Maryland without doing anything at all. How about those good old sobriety check points? That's being stopped for no reason too.

 

[Norton]

Duplicate threads merged.

 

[Ab_Normal]

Does anyone here drive a diesel pickup truck? Did you know when you bought it that you signed a paper giving the state permission to stop your vehicle and confirm that you are operating said vehicle with taxed fuel. Did you know that if you operate a commercial vehicle you can be stopped and inspected without PC? Just two examples of how you can be stopped in Maryland without doing anything at all. How about those good old sobriety check points? That's being stopped for no reason too.

No I didn't.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

4) As a LEO officer approaches my motor home, the bottom of the driver's side window is in excess of 72" above the ground. He cannot see my hands or anything that is going on in the driver's area of the motor home. For me to exit I have to leave the front of the coach and walk back to the middle, passenger side, to exit out the only door. Do the police have the authority to come in to my motor home to inspect to see if I have any weapons near the driver's seat? Again, this is if I am stopped "supposedly" for a traffic infraction.

Thanks for any help and would especially appreciate any direction to actual written Maryland laws concerning the answers.

I was pulled over by a MSP trooper back in 2009, not 20 hours after returning from a road trip to NC. He came out of his parking spot and hit his lights, because there was no place for me to pull over, I pulled off into a parking lot. I was going the speed limit the whole way and had my 4 ways on while he was following me.

After I pulled into the parking lot, he came up to me and I quote, "Do you know why I...? Never mind, you are wearing your seat belt. We are out here profiling and stepping up seat belt enforcement and it appeared that you weren't wearing yours. Sorry for the inconvenience, but can I see your license and registration? I have to fill out paperwork for every stop, and when I print it out, I'll be sure to mark it as that I made a mistake. It is not a citation or a warning, just a record that we had an interaction because I pulled you over.".

Talk about my jaw hitting the floor.

I told him that my registration is not an issue, but my license would be a problem and could I get out of my vehicle so he could see my hands at all times while I pulled my license out. He got a bit nervous when I said there was a problem with my license, but he relaxed when he realized I wanted to get out so he would feel more at ease/safer, knowing I wasn't reaching for something behind my back, in the dark.

He asked me to sit in my car while he ran my license and registration and I asked if I could sit on the tailgate of my truck and smoke a cig while he did his thing, because I don't smoke in my vehicles. The trooper said no problem, go right ahead, I'll be right back.

A little bit of common sense, kindness, and courtesy, that makes a LEO feel safer and relaxed, will always help you out in the long run.

With all of that being said, be sure to ask the officer if he would like for you to step out of the vehicle so he doesn't get put on edge, while you are getting your license and registration. Especially in the dark, if you are in a vehicle that he has a hard time seeing where your hands are moving, or if you have admitted to having firearms in the vehicle.

 

[Parttime]

Does anyone here drive a diesel pickup truck? Did you know when you bought it that you signed a paper giving the state permission to stop your vehicle and confirm that you are operating said vehicle with taxed fuel. Did you know that if you operate a commercial vehicle you can be stopped and inspected without PC? Just two examples of how you can be stopped in Maryland without doing anything at all. How about those good old sobriety check points? That's being stopped for no reason too.

The law on that, is for commercial vehicles only. I know from experience, been to court. My pickup was not a commercial vehicle or used for a commercial purpose. 4th amendment issue.

 

[rgatijnet]

First let me start by saying the article referenced omitted quite a few facts so just don't think all MD LEO's are out to get your gun. In reference to being asked to step from the vehicle there is established case law. Mimms vs Pennsylvania establishes a driver may be ordered from the vehicle during the normal course of a traffic stop. Wilson vs Maryland states the same in reference to passengers. In Maryland an RV is considered a vehicle. I ask everyone if they are traveling with weapons due to the fact I had a legal CCW holders pistol fall out of a glove box during a traffic stop when he went for the registration. He didn't tell me he possessed a CCW before opening glove box. The instant addition of an unknown weapon escalated the situation quickly. In the end the CCW holder was sent on his way with an education about why the events took place like they did. He apologized and was released with his warning. Other people that were asked if they were traveling with weapons for personal protection usually tell me they have it when asked. If they are just an everyday motorist going down the road, then I tell them to just leave it where it is. If I know I have a prohibited person, i.e criminal, then the appropriate action is taken. You are not required to tell a LEO that you have a weapon. However, every CCW I have stopped with the exception of the above told me they were carrying. This includes out of state residents. Is it illegal under MD law to carry concealed with an out of state permit? Yes. Have I arrested a valid out of state CCW holder? No. I prefer to use my discretion. Have I searched a vehicle of a CCW holder? Yes due to the fact that the odor a burnt marijuana was emanating from the passenger compartment. The CCW holder was asked where his gun was before the search for safety reasons. The odor was from a co worker/passengers clothing who smoked before getting picked up that morning. The CCW holder was released on a warning but educated about what happens when an occupant smells like Marijuana. I can not make a promise as to what other LEO's will do in reference to carrying weapons. If you plan to travel through MD with them in the underneath storage then I personally say you are covered under. F.O.P.A

Thank you so much for your response. I am aware of F.O.P.A. and how it relates to the transport of weapons. In New York State, I am allowed to transport weapons legally under that rule BUT, and this is what I am trying to find out, New York specifically states in their laws that I cannot stop, except for emergencies or fuel. In other words, I cannot stop and spend the night in an RV park if I am carrying weapons, even in the basement of an RV. As soon as I stop to spend the night, the F.O.P.A. law goes away and I am subject to NY State laws.
California allows us to transport using F.O.P.A. and as soon as I am parked, the RV becomes a residence and my weapons are not subject to confiscation or illegal.
Obviously what nobody knows about my guns can't hurt me but Murphy's Law is pretty accurate about things going wrong. Transporting my firearms is legal in every state under F.O.P.A. but as soon as you are stopped, and parked for an extended period of time, State law kicks in.
What is the Maryland State law concerning a parked RV, carrying firearms legally owned by an out of state tourist, while camped in an RV park, private driveway, or State Park? If we cannot legally stay in MD, and enjoy what the State has to offer with my guns locked in the basement, then, like NY, we must avoid it in our travels.

 

[Safetech]

Did you know that if you operate a commercial vehicle you can be stopped and inspected without PC?

Could you please define "commercial vehicle" as it pertains to this subject?

 

[daNattyFatty]

Did you know that if you operate a commercial vehicle you can be stopped and inspected without PC?

For what it's worth, in training that I've received on commercial vehicles, we've been told that only a certified inspector can stop a commercial vehicle with no PC. But it's going to be for safety inspection. Regular patrol officers can't. So don't think there's a whole army of officers that can do that every day, it's really just a small number.

That being said, if a commercial vehicle operator is stopped for some other reason by an officer that's not an inspector, and the operator is being a d*ck, then it's certainly no problem for the officer to call for an inspector to respond....